This is CoH 3. Not a brand new franchise that's attempting to market itself as 100% realistic. It's a continuation of the first 2 games
This is really strange reasoning though. COH3 can be more realistic than the previous games and still not be 100% realistic. COH3 is already more authentic than COH2, even when taking the BP into account. There are no soviets running around and the Germans only have doctrinal tigers and panthers. This does make the BP stand out. If they want to do soviets and give Jagdtigers and Sturmtigers to the Wehrmacht, I don’t have as much of an issue with the BP.
Many design decisions Relic made in COH2 aren’t exactly liked by most people in this thread (if not most of the community). You can name those as counterexamples but they don’t prove that we are inconsistent. While I think giving OKW a KT and a JT is alright in a vacuum, I think the execution of that faction fell flat on its face when it first released. A lot of the balance changes were focused on changing that design. Very few people would disagree that OKW needed to be more focused on light and medium vehicles from the start. Both for historical and gameplay reasons. The same holds true for the British in both games. They feel as a bad representation of history and bad game design.
I wanted to respond to just this section.
If a unit such as the bp ruins authentisity, why are you people silent in coh 2 about the inclusion of the st and no rescritions on heavy spam? Or about
early war soviets vs late war germany? I know why snub nose p4,s that bounce off t34's arent cool, not having panthers and tiger and wunderwaffen/niche units is detracting to the axis factions appeal and makes less money. Every one wants a big cat and then authentisity disapears.
Its quite sad that when authenticity comes for axis "gameplay and fun" is suddenly more important.
The good reasons for a unit such as the black prince is money with hype. What they did for axis in coh1 and coh 2. I 100% like it that allies now get a wunderwaffen/niche angle as well to mix it up.
And freeing allies of td spam every single game. Wich both axis and allies complain about.
Well firstly, I disagree that there is this ‘unrestricted’ heavy tank meta. This is partly because I mostly play 1v1 but even in 2v2, I rarely see Sturmtigers and Jagdtigers. Kingtigers and Tigers often make appearances but those have every right to be there. There were German formations that had a lot of those tanks and OKW is pretty specifically based on the 6th Panzer army in the Ardennes on the 16th of December, which had plenty of King Tigers at that time. Even the sturmtiger has a right to be there since it was used in the Ardennes. Panthers also weren’t exactly rare in the Ardennes. If you’re going to make a faction on the Germans that amassed all the equipment they have left for a final counterattack, it makes sense that the faction actually has that equipment.
Late war Germans vs early war Soviets is such disingenuous framing. I agree that the T34/76 and conscripts just armed with rifles make little sense for 1944 but the soviets still have plenty of competent infantry and heavier vehicles. The Wehrmacht also doesn’t have that many late war vehicles either. Tigers, Panthers and Elefants were all at Kursk.
It's not that the BP completely ruins authenticity but it’s the one unit that stands out right now. There is no individual thing in COH2 that is on the level of the BP. Even if I were to grant you that COH2 has a lot of smaller things that don’t make sense, COH3 currently has only one. We might as well remove that one thing. If they want to generate hype with heavy tanks, then why is it only this one vehicle? If they want to do 1944/1945 all over again that is fine by me, but that doesn’t seem to be what the direction is of the DAK and the British. I wouldn’t mind the BP if it was added to the British in COH2 but the vehicle stands out a lot in COH3.
No soviets yet u mean. Would not at all be surprised if they got added just like USF/OKW/Brits in coh2. Hell lots of ppl wanted a japanese faction in coh2 (not me) so i think u r seriously underestimating the fanbase of coh's tolerance for things that arent historically accurate
What the fuck r u talking about here? I dont like or dislike the BP. Im just not having a conniption over its addition because im used to Relic taking a poetic license with ww2
Im not hiding behind anything either, just giving my opinion about my preferences. Im far from the only one who didnt like heavy tank meta after the patch where heavies for all factions got overbuffed
I have no clue why they decided to add it. All im saying is they need do a lot more than that to lose me as a player, and u urself have said the exact same thing...
We still can’t say if they are going to add the soviets or not. Right now in COH3, the Black Prince does stand out. You can say that taking liberties is acceptable and that the previous game was worse but that doesn’t change the reality in COH3. A WW2 game should strive to be as authentic as possible and COH3 would be a lot more authentic if the changed one unit. No one actually has a good reason for its inclusion anyway. No one asked for it and it’s not exactly a unit that ties the whole faction together. A game based on a historic period is obviously more complicated than being either authentic or inauthentic. Taking mechanical liberties like tanks taking four at gun shots and planes being really accurate are all necessary for the game to work, but giving the Brits in 1942 a BP isn’t. Even if COH2 was way worse than COH3, we can make COH3 way more authentic by just removing one vehicle.
The community doesn’t throw history completely out of the window though. The comments in the new usf trailer are mostly about how it doesn’t look quite right for them.
It doesn’t matter that I keep playing the game despite of aspects I don’t like. You can test my consistency in the things I don’t like but the fact that previous games had similar things doesn’t make it okay this time around. What matters is that I am consistent in what I don’t like. Not that Relic has done worse things before.
It’s so strange you’re arguing against the people who want to remove half of the superheavies in the game, while you don’t even care about the BPs inclusion. We want to have an aspect of the game removed which you don’t like and no one is inconsistent about it either. If we’re going to talk about what Relic is realistically going to do, I might as well not post about it all together.
Then what's the problem? At this point i have no clue what ur problem is
U concede that coh2 already has even less realistic elements. That is the central point of my argument...
If u don't think that's what relic is going for then why the fuck r u so worried about the BP??? That's completely self contradictory
I would prefer the armies not to be made up entirely of prototype units either. So far that doesnt seem to be whats happening. It seems like there's 1 prototype unit. Is that enough to make me complain? Not really
R u worried about trickle down fiction or something? Like Relic is going to get addicted to proto units and once they start they can't stop? I find that silly
Im not concerned about other games, were talking about the standard across coh games. U have already admitted that US and brits on eastern front is more absurd than BP, so i dont see how my opinion is so confusing to u
Because there are no soviets in COH3, so its not something we have to worry about. If there were Soviets in COH3, then I wouldn’t mind the BP. I already stated I would at least like the individual factions to represent what they’re based on to a certain degree. The DAK is the opposing faction of the Brits in COH3 and they don’t have weird 1945 gear, so why should the British? There is literally no reason for including this vehicle at all.
I said I think that is what Relic is going for. It’s pretty obvious they try to get some things right. All the other gear the Brits and DAK have is significantly more accurate than the BP. Expect for the Walking Stuka maybe but the vehicle itself was used. You stated you don’t like the heavy tanks and they have largely moved away from that but you’re defending the one heavy tank that shouldn’t even be there. You can make it sound silly but including a KT or a JT to the Wehrmacht and a Panther to the DAK is fair game at this point. You can hide behind balance again but it’s got more to do with the design inherent to heavy tanks you don’t like.
Adhering to history is more complex than either being used or being a prototype. No one wants to have entire factions made up of prototypes but the question is to what extent factions can be up of prototypes, rare vehicles and vehicles that were deployed after fighting in a theater ended.
I wouldn’t mind if the BP was in COH2 since it is later war and they have taken liberties, but many of those are not in COH3. The British are more based on the army of 1942/1943 but they somehow feel the need to include a vehicle that is off by a larger margin than ever before. By you own admission, there is only one prototype. That makes it stand out even more and raises the question on why that number couldn’t be zero.
Which question? I have responded to all of ur points
Built in 1945 is my cutoff. I would prefer the prototypes be less common than the things that actually fought, but that is secondary to competitive balance for me
Then whats the real problem here????? This is my entire point, if something that is commonplace in coh2 bothers u more than the BP, why are u even complaining about the BP?
If this was a new franchise that was trying to be authentic, i would understand ur point. But its not and it isnt....
I have been top200 in 2v2 multiple times, im barely out of it currently with sovs. U see JT and elefant much more than 1 out of 10 times, thats not generous at all
I can play a game even though I dislike things about it. Both bother me but I can’t get entire factions removed at this point. Just because the previous game had immersion breaking things doesn’t mean the new game can’t be better. Both of them go too far, so I will attack both of them. It’s not like I am either fully immersed or completely taken out of the game to the point I can’t play it.
Your answer is either a weak cop out or just really weird then. If those are the only two requirements, then making factions based on real armies is pretty much dead. You can have that opinion but that’s probably not what most of the community wants and what Relic is going for (besides including the BP). The large crowd that wanted the DAK for years probably wouldn’t like it if they had a King Tiger or a Panther no matter how rarely those would be encountered while playing. But that’s what you’re okay with apparently as long as they’re sufficiently rare.
Those stats don’t even show what is picked but what is in people’s loadout btw. I guess your anecdotal experience goes against mine them because I usually see overwatch in most games I play and in nearly every 2v2 cast. The Elefant is a rare vehicle but not exactly wunderwaffe material. I usually lose games whenever my teammate goes for a JT.
I guess authentic WW2 games don’t really exist then since they all take some liberties for gameplay purposes. Maybe you can prove me wrong but I can’t think of a single game that hasn’t taken liberties that don’t always make sense. It’s more complicated than either beings authentic or being a WW2 fiction.
I am comparing the immersion of the entire games, not just the units included. If tanks being too fast for soldiers to dodge crushing doesnt break immersion for u, i dont see why the BP does. If a flare providing any kind of visual assistance in broad daylight doesnt break immersion, why does the BP?
U can say its different all u want, the result is the same. Coh2 was not historically immersive by any means
Well it happened constantly in coh2 so its a valid concern to bring up.....
Then its a good thing i didnt say that. I said that i was talking about the specific patch that launched ST meta:
Do u know what the word temporary means? I was not talking about right now for ST
JT and elefant on the other hand clearly dominate team games. Thats not even debateable, the stats literally back it up. Breakthrough and jaeger armor are the most popular commanders in 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4...https://coh2stats.com/stats?range=month&statsSource=all&type=2v2&race=wermacht&timeStamp=1661990400
OF course it doesnt, but it does require ppl to be much more careful with them. Rather than being able to replace them easily which happens all the time in team games due to resource float
ANd ive been wondering the same thing about u this whole time. U have no issue with tanks having absurd speed, flares providing reconaissance, the brits fighting on the eastern front, planes being able to track vehicles as if they have targeting computers. But suddenly a prototype shows up and NOW the game is inauthentic? That makes no sense at all
Ur point isnt about balance, but mine is. I care more about competitive balance than i do about history for the video game. THat doesnt mean history is unimportant, its just a secondary concern to balance...
If you look at top 200 in 2v2, overwatch is actually the most picked commander. In all 1v1 games Luftwaffe ground forces is most picked but that commander isn’t exactly meta either. This is the level you are roughly playing at, so it is way more applicable. There is a 1/5 change breakthrough is picked, if you’re facing OKW at all, which doesn’t have to be the case. Then the game also has to reach to point for your opponent to actually get a chance to deploy it. Choosing breakthrough also doesn’t mean that you go JT. So, I highly doubt you see one every game. You might encounter one every 1 in 10 games or so if we’re being generous. I guess the elefant is there but that’s not exactly a late war wunderwaffe.
Since you didn’t bother answering the question, I will. To start off, I already said I didn’t like the US and UK fighting on the eastern front. My dislike for it is even greater than the BP. Seeing people who want to see soviets in COH3 makes me want to cut my eyeballs out. Flares providing recon isn’t anymore insane the having the entire map covered in some sort of fog. And I don’t actually see the plane, I just hear it. None of these things have anything to do with faction design though. How liberties with mechanics are related to liberties in faction design is impossible to say. Factions don’t typically have units that were developed two years after fighting on that theater ended. Up to a year can be fine but 2 year definitely not. If it was absolutely necessary to include the BP, I wouldn’t be against it. It’s inclusion isn’t necessary though.
Liberties with game mechanics can probably go way further since they enhance the immersion and don't really matter since you're playing a game anyway. That’s why the entire map is covered in a weird fog, every unit has an invisible radio and my small hq building has hundreds of reinforcements waiting in it. It’s similar to war thunder which is idiot as a whole but still tries to portray the individual units as accurately as possible. COH can have really silly mechanics (to a certain degree) but still do its best to give the factions gear that they actually used as much as possible. Since it is possible to do Brits without the BP and they didn’t use it, it probably needs to go.
It's the same for AoE 4. The general mechanics and structure are not realistic but there still goes care in each civilization. It's probably the same for any historical game. An almost idiotic set of rules with components in them that should adhere to history as much as possible.
I don’t need to know all of that for you though. I’m just curious to roughly what extent individual factions need to have actually used gear.
‘Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)’. This statement is heavily implying that other options weren’t viable at some point in the game’s lifespan. Making other options viable implies that they weren’t at some point.
I hope they limit "uber" units to 1 per game. Something i think they shouldve done in coh2 rather than dance back and forth between buffing and nerfing over and over again
Like i already said, id like the game to focus around mediums and lights. But if were already gonna have "uber" units, just make them fair
Another way u limit it is by making other options viable, and avoid doing things like overbuffing ST (which caused the temporary period where u saw one every game)
I didnt say we should open the floodgates. I dont know how many times i have to tell u that i wouldnt be okay with the abrams while u insist thats what im saying
Im saying that i dont think the BP is any crazier than the liberties taken in coh1 and 2. Its a different way of pushing the limit, but its not any more immersion breaking than things like brits on the Eastern front. Or tanks being too fast for infantry to dodge being crushed...
The m1 Abrams would be MUCH crazier than anything theyve done.... U can drop that idea already
And if its not gonna stop u from buying the game, i dont rly know y ur even arguing with me. That is the entire original point i was objecting too....
I guess you agree then that the availability of the Sturmtiger and the BP will be roughly equal. So, it follows that the only other thing we can look at is the timeline. In which case the BP is more immersion breaking than the ST. The BP probably isn’t limited to one, so I don’t know why you’re comparing your ideal scenario for the BP with the few months that the ST was broken. I’m not interested in what you think should happen but what is happening in reality. Right now, the ST and BP are going to have more or less the same availability. Even if the ST was a bit more common to see, it did fight in the period and place on which OKW is based. It has every right to be more common than the BP. The Pershing is also a rarely seen vehicle in COH2 but you still think it is on the level of the BP.
I guess nobody ever though of not overbuffing units. What a brilliant idea. Implying other options aren’t viable right now because of the ST and JT, is such a laughable statement. You can limit certain vehicles to one but that doesn’t mean you won’t see them every game.
I’m trying to figure out at roughly what point you considered something to be too inauthentic for COH. You already named ‘being designed during WW2’ as a necessary condition, so I will adhere to that. You can duck out of the example of little boy and fat man but the point obviously wasn’t about balance. You’re not giving any reason for why the IR StG44 would be bad if it was on all German units. If you think that any WW2 prototype is fine as long as it doesn’t get picked every game, then I look forward to seeing all the weird 1945 experimental vehicles in COH3. If you think COH3 should not go further than the previous games, then you can’t go around saying ‘BUt the 1st two games didnt strive for authenticity, so why shuld the 3rd'.
Im not walking away from it. Im saying that the m1 Abrams is an absurd exaggeration of my argument
Little boy and fatman would be bad for gameplay reasons. Nobody wants to play an rts game where they can lose everything all at once to an uncounterable unit
It all depends on frequency. Irstgs on every single squad would be too much. Just like if BP is closing out every single game for brits it would be too much. Have to wait and see how its implemented
Irstgs in coh2 are good exanple of the right balance. Only available on elite squads thru specific doctrines. That itself is still an exaggeration but at least it was well limited
I didnt say i agree its more of a stretch, i said they are different. They are different stretches but the result is the same: breaking immersion from a realistic ww2 experience
Its only "more of a stretch" if the timeline is the only thing u care about. Why does BP bother ppl while tanks having nascar engines does not? I do not understand that
BUt the 1st two games didnt strive for authenticity, so why shuld the 3rd?
I would rly just like them to be honest. They were dishonest in coh2 when they said they would never add pershing because it didnt fit USF design. Then they added it
With BP they are at least acknowledging up front that they have gone in a more fictional direction. Is BP alone enough to stop you from buying the game? Cuz thats the main thing i don't understand
The BP is not going to stop me from buying the game at all. It just going to make me sigh a bit every time I see it.
If this game shouldn’t strive for authenticity, then anything goes right? As long as IR StGs are balanced, they can be on any squad and little boy and fatman are only wrong for balance reasons. It follows from your argumentation that we can just go overboard with the amount of prototype units that never saw action. You obviously believe that there is no historical standard for this game, so why shy away from that. It’s not absurd at all to ask if the Abrams would be ok since you think the game shouldn’t strive to be authentic in any way.
It’s pretty reasonable to say that a BP call-in would function similarly to JT and ST call-ins. It is also likely that the BP, just like most vehicles in COH, will be pretty OP at some point in the game’s lifespan. Controlling the frequency of a unit is almost impossible if it’s already a doctrinal call-in. If it is rarely used, Relic will buff it until it is a good pick in team games. The BP has also way more potential in 1v1 and 2v2 than the JT and ST currently have due to it being way less specialized. What makes you assume that the BP won’t see frequent usage? Accessibility is exactly the same for both of those vehicles.
Having tanks drive faster than they actually did, was probably a necessary sacrifice. I don’t think a super heavy is necessary for a faction at all. If they felt that just 1943 units was too limiting, they could have taken liberties with a bunch of 1944 units. Instead, they went for a prototype from 1945.
Just because COH had and will have immersion breaking elements, doesn’t mean we should open the floodgates. I don’t think USF needed a Pershing either but that doesn’t mean any immersion to be had in COH2 as a WW2 game is now completely gone.
But i didnt say that any liberty is acceptable. For fucks sake
Saying that my argument justifies including m1 abrams was totally fucking absurd
Im not talking about exsluvisely now. The ST dominated team game meta multiple times after certain patches
And the JT isnt rare at all otuside of 1v1. EXTREMELY common in all modes with 2 players or more
I didnt say its the same. Im not sure y i have to keep telling u what im not saying
My entire point is that relic has a pattern of ignoring history. U can say BP is further our of timeline than other violations. Fine. But its well within their overall pattern of ignoring history/realism
The speed of tanks offroad in coh2, the accuracy of air to ground attacks, the frequency of heavy tanks, flares providing recon (lol), US and Brits fighting regularly on the eastern front, the list goes on. Sure those arent the same as including BP, but they break immersion enough for me that i dont expect relic to try to keep up the ruse of this being an authentic ww2 game
I literally said "i dont mind the violation"..... THe only part about ST and JT that bothered me was how much they dominated team meta at certain points. BP will bother me the same if it does, but the game isnt even out yet so i have no idea how common it will be......
I can say what i did about the maus because its a video game, not a fucking history class. LIke i already said i would prefer neither BP or Maus cuz i think it makes the gameplay boring
You’re stating that this isn’t an authentic WW2 game, so the inclusion of the BP is fine. Then it follows that any inclusion (as long as it was designed during WW2 like you stated) is fine. Then little boy and fat man could be off-maps and every German unit can get IR StG44s. You should probably commit to that position instead of walking away from it every time I try to counter it.
If you agree that the BP is more of a stretch than the JT and ST and some things are too unhistorical for COH, then we can formulate at what point something is too fictional for COH. Even if COH is fictional, it is not fictional on the level of games like World of Tanks or BF5. It is pretty obvious that the factions Relic designs are supposed to have some resemblance of reality. Even if they take liberties with their designs.
When you’re saying that you don’t expect Relic to keep the ruse up, that’s pretty synonymous with anything goes. If the fundamental disagreement here is that you don’t think COH should strive for some authenticity and I think it should, then there isn’t any point in discussing this further.
I didnt answer it because been asked a dozen times already. If maus were balanced i wouldnt care. This isnt about axis v allies and im really bored of ppl trying to turn the conversation into that
But stop it with that m1 abrams crap. Dont act like me saying im accepting a prototype from 1945 is the same as being okay with a tank that saw its first action in 1980. THats just a ridiculous exaggeration
At least maus and BP were actually designed by ww2 engineers. ANd were being built during the war
THen its a good thing i didnt say anything goes. I just dont think the gap between BP inclusion and Relics already taken liberties is as large as u do
Its not just about timeline, unit frequency matters just as much imo. COh2s meta has had things like Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger be units that were seen in almost every match. That is not at all reasonable by history standards either, but its a video game so i dont mind that violation. ITs effect on gameplay variety bothers me more than the insult to historians
If BP shows its face every game then i will have problems with that. But thats more for gameplay reasons, i think uber units in general make the gameplay more stale
If any liberty taken is acceptable because liberties were taken previously, it follows that anything goes. If we want to have ‘were designed by ww2 engineers’ as a condition, we can but that would lead to the inclusion of vehicles like tortoise or the centurion. It’s your and esxile’s argumentation that went down this line. I had to explain why the BP crossed a line, which is impossible.
I guess we can leave all of that aside and focus on the Black Prince in comparison to COH2 vehicles. The Jagdtiger and the Sturmtiger aren’t seen every match. They are extremely rare in 1v1 and 2v2 and less common than the KT. Moreover, these vehicles were used in the Ardennes, so their inclusion of a faction based around that makes sense. It’s an overrepresentation (a rare on at that) but not borderline fiction.
Relics design for the British in COH3 is clearly focused on the mid war. They could have done Cromwells, Fireflies and Churchill’s again but it seems they wanted vehicles like the M3 Lee, Matilda II and Crusader. For whatever reason, someone at relic decided that this faction wasn’t complete without a prototype vehicle from may 1945.
Overrepresenting vehicles that were there is not the same as including a vehicle that was finished two years after fighting ended in a particular theater. It’s like saying that giving the DAK a Stumtiger is the same as giving OKW a Sturmtiger. Off course, the timeline isn’t the only thing that matters but the game needs to cohere somewhat to it. The inclusion of specific theaters and parts of WW2 is pointless otherwise.
Why are you fine with the inclusion of the BP if you didn’t like the Sturmtiger and Jagdtiger. You’re taking a gamble as far as frequency of the BP goes and it makes the inclusion of vehicles like the King Tiger fair game. I don’t understand at all how you can say with a straight face that the Maus would be fine.