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Command P4 vs Command AEC - what the buff!

26 Jun 2022, 22:20 PM
#21
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jun 2022, 22:12 PMVipper

It highlight the problems of the unit and thus useful by my definition.

They're only problems if you weigh the negatives against the positives and they don't match up

In 1v1, they don't. Add teammates and the benefits increase significantly. Its far from the only unit in the game thats only useful in either team games or 1v1, but not both
27 Jun 2022, 00:59 AM
#22
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637

I love the Command Panzer IV. If it had any changes, I would like to see some accuracy buffs on it vs Infantry or the Population Cost reduced.
27 Jun 2022, 07:44 AM
#23
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1


They're only problems if you weigh the negatives against the positives and they don't match up

In 1v1, they don't. Add teammates and the benefits increase significantly. Its far from the only unit in the game thats only useful in either team games or 1v1, but not both

And the majority of things I pointed out would make it better in 1vs1 without impacting 4vs4 significantly.
27 Jun 2022, 13:56 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 07:44 AMVipper

And the majority of things I pointed out would make it better in 1vs1 without impacting 4vs4 significantly.

If you buff it's AI that would definitely effect team games. If you want AI performance there's great stock options. If you want the RD aura, you get a cmd p4
27 Jun 2022, 14:32 PM
#25
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460

How can someone compare Command vehicle on a 3 shot AEC that buffs only you, and a command P4 that is 4 shot and buffs everyone around it. Silly
27 Jun 2022, 15:02 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

How can someone compare Command vehicle on a 3 shot AEC that buffs only you, and a command P4 that is 4 shot and buffs everyone around it. Silly

That is simply because you have not seen the AT capability of 2 FF supported by command AEC...
27 Jun 2022, 15:06 PM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1


If you buff it's AI that would definitely effect team games. If you want AI performance there's great stock options. If you want the RD aura, you get a cmd p4

I have not suggested to buff the AI of the unit and even one buffed it AI it would have the same impact as an Ostwind.
27 Jun 2022, 15:07 PM
#28
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 15:02 PMVipper

That is simply because you have not seen the AT capability of 2 FF supported by command AEC...


(loses to elefant anyway)
27 Jun 2022, 18:17 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 15:07 PMKatukov


(loses to elefant anyway)

I am pretty sure that the majority or player are able to defeat a single Elefant with 2 FF and Command AEC.

Yet I you claim that you lose 3 vehicles to single Elefant I believe you.
27 Jun 2022, 19:32 PM
#30
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 18:17 PMVipper

I am pretty sure that the majority or player are able to defeat a single Elefant with 2 FF and Command AEC.

Yet I you claim that you lose 3 vehicles to single Elefant I believe you.



An elefant loses vs 2 firefly if the wehrmacht player has no support with the elefant, drives up to the fireflies, is delusional on the coh2.org forums and on drugs and steers forward as the fireflies are flanking it. Lol no

AEC doesn't count as a unit once its a command vehicle lmao and you're either up against an elefant with a panzer 4 command (increased durability and better odds), or it has spotting scope maphacks and will fire off the 1st shot.




but expecting wehr players to actually have brains is optimistic, you could probably win a frontal engagement purely because of their stupidity in that scenario
27 Jun 2022, 21:41 PM
#31
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 19:32 PMKatukov

AEC doesn't count as a unit once its a command vehicle lmao and you're either up against an elefant with a panzer 4 command (increased durability and better odds), or it has spotting scope maphacks and will fire off the 1st shot.

Not really sure what you're going for here. Honestly 2 FF are decently threatening against an elefant thanks to tulips, with or without cmd AEC support

Brits have some pretty good recon/spotting themselves, and their tanks can get better FOW tracking. Brits struggle with a lot of things, but they're pretty good at killing heavy TDs. Especially with an ally distracting it

I have rammed many elefants with t34s just to setup a kill from my brit teammate
27 Jun 2022, 22:20 PM
#32
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460


Not really sure what you're going for here. Honestly 2 FF are decently threatening against an elefant thanks to tulips, with or without cmd AEC support

Brits have some pretty good recon/spotting themselves, and their tanks can get better FOW tracking. Brits struggle with a lot of things, but they're pretty good at killing heavy TDs. Especially with an ally distracting it

I have rammed many elefants with t34s just to setup a kill from my brit teammate


Tulips work well against Tigers and King tigers. However, super heavies... unless the sole point is to stun, not really worth the drain.

With a 50% chance to penetrate long range, and Elefant having the Hp it's having, you're better off using tulips to help start a dive to kill the ele, followed by a katyusha or some other salvo of indirects around the elefant (paks, raketen... but also trigger mines) and then you dive. Using tulips and just hammering away at the elefant with the FFs is not really advisable, unless the elefant is completely naked.
Also keep in mind that the reload time for the FF is 6 seconds vet3 (8 vet0). To kill an elefant in a decent team you need to invest much more MP/muni/fuel than ele is worth. Same goes with jagd.
Speaking from experience here as I've helped destroy many-a-heavy TD. It's a cancer, especially on 3v3 maps where it can be easily parked and just hammer away at any tank trying to help secure the VP... without risking some flanks.

Your best bet is to have one ally dominate their lane, to open up the flank and then dive it. Biggest mistake people do with the ele is trying to backpedal it to safety. Mostly it's just better to let it hammer away at tanks (unless it's 6 ally TDs and the ele is completely solo)
27 Jun 2022, 22:58 PM
#33
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


With a 50% chance to penetrate long range, and Elefant having the Hp it's having, you're better off using tulips to help start a dive to kill the ele, followed by a katyusha or some other salvo of indirects around the elefant (paks, raketen... but also trigger mines) and then you dive. Using tulips and just hammering away at the elefant with the FFs is not really advisable, unless the elefant is completely naked.

We're getting offtopic here but it changes completely if you mark the elefant as Sovs. I play guard motor or Mechanized support 80% of my team games as soviets. Double FF forces it to back up or die quite often when it's taking 35% more damage

Mark, ram with a 76, and watch the health melt. It's not foolproof, but it works very well especially with voice chat coordination (I rarely play 3s with randoms)

Vet 0 FF does 270 dmg per shot to a marked tank, so it can kill an ele in 4 shots
27 Jun 2022, 23:13 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1



Tulips work well against Tigers and King tigers. However, super heavies... unless the sole point is to stun, not really worth the drain.

With a 50% chance to penetrate long range, and Elefant having the Hp it's having, you're better off using tulips to help start a dive to kill the ele, followed by a katyusha or some other salvo of indirects around the elefant (paks, raketen... but also trigger mines) and then you dive. Using tulips and just hammering away at the elefant with the FFs is not really advisable, unless the elefant is completely naked...

Do you have any idea what the penetration value is for tulips or are you just making thing up once more?

https://coh2.serealia.ca/#60
27 Jun 2022, 23:25 PM
#35
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 19:32 PMKatukov

An elefant loses vs 2 firefly if the wehrmacht player has no support with the elefant, drives up to the fireflies, is delusional on the coh2.org forums and on drugs and steers forward as the fireflies are flanking it. Lol no

That is an odd answer because that is exactly what you posted:

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 15:07 PMKatukov


(loses to elefant anyway)

Now if you wanted to post that 2 FF+C.AEC can not attack a properly supported Elefant I suggest you avoid thing like "anyway".

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 19:32 PMKatukov

AEC doesn't count as a unit once its a command vehicle lmao and you're either up against an elefant with a panzer 4 command (increased durability and better odds),

AEC is perfectly capable of contributing with "Target Tread" ability even when it is upgraded to a command vehicle, by it does not really have to to fire because the aura contribute more than enough.
Vehicle bonus:
+30% reload speed.
-30% weapon cooldown.
+30% accuracy.
+15% penetration.

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 19:32 PMKatukov

or it has spotting scope maphacks and will fire off the 1st shot.

Elefant can not upgrade with spotting scopes.


jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 15:07 PMKatukov

but expecting wehr players to actually have brains is optimistic, you could probably win a frontal engagement purely because of their stupidity in that scenario

And here we go again with racist theories which translates that you have no arguments.

Bottom line is that FFs supported by C. AEC have very high AT damage output.
28 Jun 2022, 01:14 AM
#36
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Jun 2022, 23:13 PMVipper

Do you have any idea what the penetration value is for tulips or are you just making thing up once more?

https://coh2.serealia.ca/#60


I think he might of meant the penetration for the FFs main gun at long range. 210/400 is obvi very close to 50% so I assume that's what he was trying to say. He probably could've made that clearer
28 Jun 2022, 07:35 AM
#37
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460


We're getting offtopic here but it changes completely if you mark the elefant as Sovs. I play guard motor or Mechanized support 80% of my team games as soviets. Double FF forces it to back up or die quite often when it's taking 35% more damage

Mark, ram with a 76, and watch the health melt. It's not foolproof, but it works very well especially with voice chat coordination (I rarely play 3s with randoms)

Vet 0 FF does 270 dmg per shot to a marked tank, so it can kill an ele in 4 shots


Well yeah. With mark target, any target is easy. I only play randoms in 3v3s so I know the struggle it can be to kill an elefant/jagd, especially with ~50% chance of penetration on the FF. Sure the tulips help with the stun, but you still need a lot of coordination. Not to mention that on a map like Redball, where the elefant can be safe behind indestructible shot/sight blockers, and there are no real flanking opportunities without being immediately seen, you will have a much tougher time breaking it than on a map like General Mud or Steppes (great maps, but too big for 3v3s.

From my experience (almost every game there is an elefant), ELE/JGDT is unkillable in a typical 3v3 game where you have 4 high rank players and 2 low rank (the brilliancy of the MM -> rank 20 + rank 30 + rank 800 VS rank 20 + rank 40 + rank 700) mainly because you will not be able to coordinate to destroy it. If you have those extremely high rank games, where everyone is top 50 or sth, then you will be able to coordinate, but the opposition will be more fierce (enemies know how to position, defend...).
Most of the time, I saw the elefant get destroyed by:
1) RAM + hammer away
2) Mark target

Without the soviet it's generally really hard. Countless times have I closed in to medium range on a snared elefant/jagd with a Pershing + Jackson only to see 4-5 bounces on it.
28 Jun 2022, 09:59 AM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

The fact that Elefant vs 2xFF + Command AEC is not already a clear win for the Fireflies, just shows how strong the Elefant really is.

The command ability good, but the design is shitty. There is no other unit that it would be worth putting on beside the AEC. The UC is too squishy, and T3 units too valuable to reduchttps://www.coh2.org/post/create/thread_id/110491#e their fighting power that much.
28 Jun 2022, 11:06 AM
#39
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 712

I think both of them need BUFF.
UKF Commander vehicle bundle with Valentine,when Valentine use scout mode same time active command aura.
Command P4 bundle with P4J,be command P4.J,increase cost to 450/150,make both of them more useful.
28 Jun 2022, 11:18 AM
#40
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

The fact that Elefant vs 2xFF + Command AEC is not already a clear win for the Fireflies, just shows how strong the Elefant really is.

The command ability good, but the design is shitty. There is no other unit that it would be worth putting on beside the AEC. The UC is too squishy, and T3 units too valuable to reduchttps://www.coh2.org/post/create/thread_id/110491#e their fighting power that much.

UC was actually so broken as command vehicle that the had to remove the upgrade from it.

Still other vehicles can be used and I do see command Churchills

As for FF and AEC their performance vs elefant is not a benchmark. They can delete panther in matter of secs.
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