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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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10 Apr 2022, 14:46 PM
#101
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 102

Funny enough, but USF has Inf Company which provides LMGs, sandbags, mortar and arty or Tactical Support which also provide LMG, forward reinforcement platform and Cali. Covering pretty much rifles problem on open long range maps, yet high ranks still prefers pathfinder abuse.

Its not about rifles performance like at all. Its this:

inf company, tactical support still not fix USF outdated openning. Not to mention you had to invest more than enemies just to deal with LONG RANGE combat.
10 Apr 2022, 14:57 PM
#102
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 14:28 PMVipper



Do you agree with the claim:
"USF mortar is by far the weakest and usually just behaves as a pop eater," ?


i do not agree with the claim "USF mortar is in line with other mortars"
10 Apr 2022, 15:03 PM
#103
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212

Ah, as infantry coy and tac support coy is mentioned. I'm very curious on why m1919 cost 70 ammo and 1 commander slot while still being like this

10 Apr 2022, 15:20 PM
#104
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

Ah, as infantry coy and tac support coy is mentioned. I'm very curious on why m1919 cost 70 ammo and 1 commander slot while still being like this


Those two weapons are about 4-5% in DPS apart.
I assume because you put it on a 5 men squad, allowing you to keep the weapon for longer in the fight while investing similar population.
The commander slow also allows you to skip or heavily delay the weapon rack upgrade.
10 Apr 2022, 15:46 PM
#105
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176


Those two weapons are about 4-5% in DPS apart.
I assume because you put it on a 5 men squad, allowing you to keep the weapon for longer in the fight while investing similar population.
The commander slow also allows you to skip or heavily delay the weapon rack upgrade.


And its possible for them to carry another Bar. Which improve overall damage.
10 Apr 2022, 15:53 PM
#106
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625

I think sight adjustment and vet tweaks could help. Sight - 50->42 to keep them a scouting unit (back to 50 with vet 1 or 2, similar to snipers and puma/aec) and vet values adjusted. With this they can still run into garrisoned mg42s early game but can still scout out mgs that aren't garrisoned and/or see where pios are and drive them off if they're separated.
10 Apr 2022, 18:21 PM
#111
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 12:50 PMVipper

They do not have a harder time to defend positions because Ostheer are bad at attacking.

Try attacking with grenadiers from out of cover vs riflemen in cover and see what happens.

there is more then one axis faction. Try to broaden your approach or use context and see what happens

But that is besides the point riflemen are much more flexible when it comes to fighting having decent DPS at all ranges and thus it is not "the enemy dictates the fight in by far most cases"

the larger the maps are the bigger the problem as they are laney and open, sandbags plus long range mainlines dont agree, as its quite easy to hunker down and bleed inf on appraoch from behind cover when there is limited to no flanking available. Even then mg's or sturms can cover that. In bigger modes going around is not a real option.

USF mortar is in line with other mortars and it will bleed the enemy unless he can fire back.

wich is a bit easier to do as as it has shorter range, again not sayings its bad. Just imho the usf stock opening line-up isent suited for bigger modes. Getting bled out is a big problem. This happens because they dont get things i mentioned before as stock unlike other factions

Destroying a ambulance in a 3vs3 or 4vs4 in the early game is not easy at all.

never said it was, mobility is a great strength but if threatend it is the easiest to destroy. Even in base its the easiest to destroy

OKW float mp only when/if they are starving for fuel (and even then mostly because they can not build cashes like other factions).

that explains 200 to 400 mp float. The rest (in bigger modes) comes from no bleed kubel with good sight, inf that can deploy their own cover, selfheal and having mostly long range inf. All of wich usf needs doctrines for.

10 Apr 2022, 18:44 PM
#112
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13150 | Subs: 1

the larger the maps are the bigger the problem as they are laney and open, sandbags plus long range mainlines dont agree, as its quite easy to hunker down and bleed inf on appraoch from behind cover when there is limited to no flanking available. Even then mg's or sturms can cover that. In bigger modes going around is not a real option.

Playing passively is a defensive position does not describe "dictating the fight" on the contrary.



(OKW float Manpower because of) selfheal

Seriously...
10 Apr 2022, 21:19 PM
#113
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625

Yes, vet 5 volks and vet 3 obers save enough mp to build a kt through self healing 😂

OR they aren't actually floating and spending 300mp on each tech level
10 Apr 2022, 22:38 PM
#114
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 965 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 21:19 PMKoRneY
Yes, vet 5 volks and vet 3 obers save enough mp to build a kt through self healing 😂


Wait until you learn of UKF. Those guys basically have infinite man power float, because of AOE self-heal :snfQuinn:
11 Apr 2022, 08:11 AM
#115
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Apr 2022, 18:44 PMVipper

Playing passively is a defensive position does not describe "dictating the fight" on the contrary.

if you cant go around or flank they set the terms. So i have to disagree here



Seriously...
please read for once. Did i say only because of self heal? Or did i mention other factors?
11 Apr 2022, 08:25 AM
#116
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13150 | Subs: 1

if you cant go around or flank they set the terms. So i have to disagree here

You have the right to disagree, but they some can be said for USF they can also play defensively/passively if they want, so there is something wrong with that theory.

As I have ready pointed out the more flexible someone is the easier it is to "dictate the fight".

please read for once. Did i say only because of self heal? Or did i mention other factors?

Nope I am not following down that path which will derail this thread...the ambulance was brought by OP so I will stick to that.
11 Apr 2022, 12:37 PM
#117
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1076

What I really don't understand is how people expect USF to play properly if every single f*cking unit the faction uses to play on an even field with axis units is nerfed until it's not scary any more.

I would never subject myself to the torture that is playing stock USF against ANY faction.

Seriously though, I do see the issues with paths. Just unfuck the faction. Seriously. Make the paths not a combat unit, sure, whatever. But give USF something in return. Make paras come earlier with their upgrades locked, I don't know.

EDIT: In fact, I haven't played USF AT ALL ever since I started playing SOV just because of how incredibly un-fun it is to get beat back by Panthers and panzergrens and lmg grens and just have NOTHING to contend against them with. If you pick the wrong doctrine or god forbid you try to pick a FUN doctrine, you're on a timer to just lose the game. It's as simple as that.


Decent take actually.

IMHO the problem with USF is not Pathspamming per se, but rather that the average USF fan has no resort to other opening. Other factions, like OST/OKW can play with every possible opening and be extremely effective (4Grens to double Mortar, 1MG to 2 Grens to 1 sniper, 2 MG to 2 Mortars to 2 Pak etc). Hell, even UKF can open with Assault Sections and mortar in order to counter OKW close quarter threat.

Such an alternative does not exist with USF, so 4Path to Scott is the only gamble to victory.
11 Apr 2022, 16:56 PM
#118
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1257

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2022, 08:25 AMVipper

You have the right to disagree, but they some can be said for USF they can also play defensively/passively if they want, so there is something wrong with that theory.

As I have ready pointed out the more flexible someone is the easier it is to "dictate the fight".

i have to disagree with the later bit as well, in the past soviet where also more flexible and utility oriented and ost was specialized. They struggled even more in big games vs ost to the point that certain doctrines where mandatory to even stand a chance. Usf is in a simaler situation now.


11 Apr 2022, 17:34 PM
#119
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13150 | Subs: 1

i have to disagree with the later bit as well, in the past soviet where also more flexible and utility oriented and ost was specialized. They struggled even more in big games vs ost to the point that certain doctrines where mandatory to even stand a chance. Usf is in a simaler situation now.

You have the right to disagree, but all that is irrelevant to Pathfinder/Ambulance and no there are very few similarities between USF and Soviets.

And USF have better win-rates than other allied factions and appear superior to axis faction in 1vs1 so they do not seem to struggle.

And once more flexible units allow players to "dictate the fight" easier.
11 Apr 2022, 18:00 PM
#120
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2838 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2022, 17:34 PMVipper

You have the right to disagree, but all that is irrelevant to Pathfinder/Ambulance and no there are very few similarities between USF and Soviets.

And USF have better win-rates than other allied factions both 1vs1 and 3vs3 so they do not seem to struggle.

And once more flexible units allow players to "dictate the fight" easier.

The main point that many make is not that USF struggles in all circumstances, but that the only way for them to not struggle is by choosing airborne.

I think the only commander where we can see such a heavy bias in loadout is Soviet's Guard Motor commander. Axis commanders seem to be generally more diverse, only Jager Armour stands out for OST in 3v3 and 4v4. OKW commanders in loadout are probably the most equally distributed from all factions.

I am not sure if I'd nail down Airborne as the only "fix" for USF, but the commander data is strongly biased for USF in all modes. What is notable though is that the rate of Airborne increases if you switch to the top200 while the win rate stays the similar, indicating that this doctrine might be required to stay competitive.
On that point it would be interesting to know if Airborne is part of the free 4 commanders. If so, this effect would be quite exacerbated. Is there any site/post to look up the initial commanders for all factions?
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