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russian armor

buff 251 AA HT OKW

1 Mar 2022, 01:22 AM
#1
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 253

251 AA HT OKW is not very good for cost.
Consider the following:

It takes a long time to set up in order to shoot.
It is not greatly mobile.
It is very fragile and easy to hit with attack ground.

Look at Soviet AA HT: it is more mobile, can fire on the move, can suppress better, and is cheaper.
USF AA: mobile is about the same, can shoot on the move, has more damage from cannon, very good at suppress, same price.

1 Mar 2022, 04:13 AM
#2
avatar of y3ivan

Posts: 156

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Mar 2022, 01:22 AMReverb
251 AA HT OKW is not very good for cost.
Consider the following:

It takes a long time to set up in order to shoot.
It is not greatly mobile.
It is very fragile and easy to hit with attack ground.

Look at Soviet AA HT: it is more mobile, can fire on the move, can suppress better, and is cheaper.
USF AA: mobile is about the same, can shoot on the move, has more damage from cannon, very good at suppress, same price.



you miss the most important aspect of 251 AA HT

It has the get-the-hell-out smoke if it is in trouble.

it has slightly better DPS and splash radius. and kill stuff quicker
1 Mar 2022, 12:39 PM
#3
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889

My only real complaint about it is that for some reason it loses to the USF AAHT consistently (set up Flak HT vs USF one moving into range, even if you manually target the USF AAHT). Seems off.
1 Mar 2022, 13:31 PM
#4
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1483

My only real complaint about it is that for some reason it loses to the USF AAHT consistently (set up Flak HT vs USF one moving into range, even if you manually target the USF AAHT). Seems off.


AAHT has better AT capabilities and is much more difficult to traverse (+ no smoke). On the other hand, it has worse AI capabilities and, as the OKW AAHT, needs to be static to fire (there is an invisible set up time to fire the cannon).
For example, I've had situations where I've freshly reloaded the AAHT, and yet it wouldn't fire for 5+ seconds even though it was static. It's extremely buggy and unreliable.

Heck, I've seen the AAHT kill the stolen AEC. That is, the enemy stole the allied AAHT, and the 2nd allied brit charged it with the AEC and it lost.

In theory it can destroy a puma.


Considering the head to head AAHT vs flak, it's variable. Most of the times, AAHT wins. I'd say in about 70% of duels. AAHT has an extremely long reload ( about 9 seconds ), compared to about 5.5 for the OKW AAHT. I'm not sure how many shots does the USF AAHT fire from the main cannon before it needs to reload but I do know this:

USF AAHT vs:
Puma -> full reload is not enough to kill it head to head unless all shots fired are in it's back (or extremely lucky accuracy for a static close range puma)

OKW AAHT -> full reload is enough to kill it, however not all shots connect and you can miss quite a few + smoke

Luchs -> Luchs wins easily

222 -> 222 can win if there is enough space to move. Toe to toe it will lose (unless extremely lucky misses occur). It will win easily if you catch the AAHT with low amount of ammo so that there is a need for a reload

USF AAHT +/-:
- USF AAHT is impossible to tell if it's completely static
- USF AAHT is hard to target specific targets unless a handbrake is placed (for a 2 shot vehicle, not recommended) due to the infinite rotation "feature"
- AAHT shoots out of it's ass, meaning you need to use the hotkey to move (induces micro especially if you're getting dived or flanked in teamgames)
- Extremely long reload and low ammo capacity

+ Great AT and AI capabilities. Better AT and worse AI compared to OKW AAHT
+ Great AA capabilities once set up in AA mode
+ Quite good acceleration with veterancy. It's hard to maneuver it in combat, but to bugger the hell out, at vet3 it's speedy and becomes a 3 shot.

It does not lose consistently to the USF AAHT moving into range to fire.
A) The cannon range is shorter than the MG range. Meaning that you need to be closer than the visual aid shows (about 3 units closer)
B) If OKW AAHT begins firing first, it will win most of the times.
1 Mar 2022, 13:54 PM
#5
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

this fucking guy goes ahead and claims that the maxim is fine but then asks for a flak HT buff




ok
1 Mar 2022, 16:11 PM
#6
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

this fucking guy goes ahead and claims that the maxim is fine but then asks for a flak HT buff




ok


He is doing it on purpose.
1 Mar 2022, 16:28 PM
#7
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 889



...

Agreed on the main body of your post, though my original point is still correct. I saw it happen many times in games. The AAHT will beat the flak HT consistently, it's just a bit more justifiable than I thought - there are many flaws in the swivelling thing. Many USF players run once the AAHT takes flak HT fire but more experienced ones can calmly roll up to it. And as the vid shows, you really don't stand a chance. I could repeat it more but these results are easily reproducible.

Requires a vet II Flak HT to stand a chance:




Luchs will get defeated frontally, just needs more shots. But Luchs is a bad example as it can get into your dead zone very easily.
1 Mar 2022, 16:51 PM
#8
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183

Agreed.

It gets two shotted by snares and ATGs and cannot fire for shit.

At least give it a little bit more armor to with stand two shots.
1 Mar 2022, 19:04 PM
#9
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1285

Agreed.

It gets two shotted by snares and ATGs and cannot fire for shit.

At least give it a little bit more armor to with stand two shots.


Its called get out of jail free smoke. Thats your extra armour. At the push of a button. Imaginary problem solved.
1 Mar 2022, 20:27 PM
#10
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183



Its called get out of jail free smoke. Thats your extra armour. At the push of a button. Imaginary problem solved.


Not at all.

If you ever get out of level 2 you would know that even if you pop smoke there is a thing called "attack ground" which ruins your AA HT.

Problem is not at all imaginary.
1 Mar 2022, 21:07 PM
#11
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 217

well, one faction is bound to end up with ''the worst'' (insert unit)

although its the worst ''multipurpose'' AA HT out of USF,SOV and OKW, i think its ok.

maybe give it some timed ability like ''incendiary rounds''?
1 Mar 2022, 21:09 PM
#12
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 253

this fucking guy goes ahead and claims that the maxim is fine but then asks for a flak HT buff




ok


Please tell me how Soviet .50 Quad is balance against 251 AA HT.
Quad is better in every way and cheaper.


251AAHT Smoke is worth absolutely nothing against non braindead players who can attack ground. It should not have to pack up to move, which is the other thing I forget to mention, besides having to be stationary to fire, it has a delay or setup/pack up.
1 Mar 2022, 21:19 PM
#13
avatar of Reverb

Posts: 253



He is doing it on purpose.


I disagree.
1 Mar 2022, 21:27 PM
#14
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 191

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Mar 2022, 21:09 PMReverb


Please tell me how Soviet .50 Quad is balance against 251 AA HT.
Quad is better in every way and cheaper.


251AAHT Smoke is worth absolutely nothing against non braindead players who can attack ground. It should not have to pack up to move, which is the other thing I forget to mention, besides having to be stationary to fire, it has a delay or setup/pack up.


Attack ground is a non-accuracy shot and is less likely to hit than just shooting a unit within your ATG/Tank's sight, so the smoke forces you to have a toss-up whether or not it will actually get destroyed.

And why should the OKW FHT have more health compared to other AA units? It's fine as is.
2 Mar 2022, 01:50 AM
#15
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62

It's a cheap light vehicle that has smoke and 360 decree firing arc.
OKW doesn't need anymore buffs, L2P
2 Mar 2022, 01:51 AM
#16
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62

Agreed.

It gets two shotted by snares and ATGs and cannot fire for shit.

At least give it a little bit more armor to with stand two shots.

Literally every light vehicle allies have that isn't some kind of light tank goes down by two shots.
If your AA halftrack gets snared, that's your fault.
2 Mar 2022, 03:50 AM
#17
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

Flak HT is so powerful that it's one of the key units keeping the faction viable in 1v1. I've wiped countless squads and had countless squads wiped by it since many players commonly forget it ignores accuracy bonuses from retreating. Its shock timing is ridiculously early since you can delay medics for a little. The only weakness is that sometimes when firing at long range it loses vision of the enemy in between a burst and then charges forward recklessly by itself, but good players almost always spot properly for their flak HTs.

Arguably the Quad is the best HT overall since it can fire on the move without setting up (and is also the best AA unit), but it does cost a buttload of munitions and competes with the T70 at a similar timing.
MMX
2 Mar 2022, 05:18 AM
#18
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

The AAHT is a good unit until it hits vet 2, after which it turns S tier... vs infantry, that is of course, as its AT capabilities are limited at best. Still, I don't know of any other unit that almost doubles its AI upon vetting up by one level - the only problem is and always has been getting there. But with smoke no longer gated behind vet 1 for quite a while this has become a much easier task nowadays.

The Quad may have the advantage of being able to fire on the move, but it loses over 80% of its DPS (except maybe against certain low-armor LVs such as the 222) doing so, hence I'd say this isn't really that huge of an advantage in reality.
2 Mar 2022, 06:57 AM
#19
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1183


Literally every light vehicle allies have that isn't some kind of light tank goes down by two shots.


So? Make the OKW AAH go down with 3. Problem solved for everybody.
2 Mar 2022, 07:10 AM
#20
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 778



So? Make the OKW AAH go down with 3. Problem solved for everybody.


There is no problem. OKW AAHT is a good unit (and has never been a bad unit, just a unit that was in a bad place because of OKW teching.) If an ATG threatens the vehicle, smoke and get out. If a light tank threatens the vehicle, you should survive enough of the 80hp damage hits until you can get it to the safety of your raketenwerfer or mines. The only real non-armored threat to the OKW 251 AAHT is the USF M15 AAHT, and it can't fire its cannon on the move either.

No idea why Axis players feel like they need to have the best units stats-wise for every scenario. If the flak halftrack didn't have setup time people would still be making these stupid posts calling it underpowered and asking for unique durability buffs.
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