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Pioneers vs Rear Echelon

29 Jan 2022, 20:54 PM
#81
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


so apparently stock CE is a decent unit. Literally 4 men con squad, so good. Ok dude.

They are better at fighting than conscripts, same dps better target size.

So for the cheapest engineer units being as better than their mainline of their faction yes they are a "decent unit".
29 Jan 2022, 20:58 PM
#82
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1


so apparently stock CE is a decent unit. Literally 4 men con squad, so good. Ok dude.


they ARE actually good combat units, but in the form of clustering them with your 1st infantry sq and defeating enemy sturmpioneer before it gets support


also spamming CE is definitely recommended because its funny
29 Jan 2022, 21:58 PM
#83
avatar of RollingStone

Posts: 173

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2022, 20:58 PMKatukov


they ARE actually good combat units, but in the form of clustering them with your 1st infantry sq and defeating enemy sturmpioneer before it gets support


also spamming CE is definitely recommended because its funny


Don't forget that one doctrine with mass-spam nade launchers, just like in tightrope vid's! Much firepower, very lethal!
30 Jan 2022, 06:41 AM
#84
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 884

RETs are one example of several garbage-tier units in the USF roster that cost way too much. They can basically be ignored by any of your units if encountering them alone.
30 Jan 2022, 12:19 PM
#85
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2022, 20:54 PMVipper

They are better at fighting than conscripts, same dps better target size.

So for the cheapest engineer units being as better than their mainline of their faction yes they are a "decent unit".


Saying that ce's are better combatants then the main line conscripts is quite a stretch.

They lack staying power on their own with less models and less guns,
Their real strentgh is their price and synergy with flamers and conscripts merging.

Rear echelons are quite pointless to get compared to any other engineer esp ce's. Crew repairs and tech not being build by engies being one reason, not having proper mines sandbags being another. Having smoke should make them a vital unit, however it doesnt. Mortar and officers make it so.
30 Jan 2022, 15:58 PM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Saying that ce's are better combatants then the main line conscripts is quite a stretch.


They lack staying power on their own with less models and less guns,
Their real strentgh is their price and synergy with flamers and conscripts merging.

Rear echelons are quite pointless to get compared to any other engineer esp ce's. Crew repairs and tech not being build by engies being one reason, not having proper mines sandbags being another. Having smoke should make them a vital unit, however it doesnt. Mortar and officers make it so.

That is Per entity, same DPS better RA.

I have not tested but I would guess that 3 CE would beat 2 conscript in straight up fight.

For a engineer unit that is not bad at all.
30 Jan 2022, 17:46 PM
#87
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

Imo the issue is that there are good reasons (besides repair and sweeping) to build other engies (except for sturms, but they are pretty good on their own) and almost none to build REs. Giving them zooks is the only use of them, besides sweeping and axillary repairs.
30 Jan 2022, 22:50 PM
#88
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1



Don't forget that one doctrine with mass-spam nade launchers, just like in tightrope vid's! Much firepower, very lethal!


those are rear echelons

spamming them is probably not really effective and more of a troll tactic than actual legitimate tactic

also, if upgraded rear echelons go into a fighting position, they gain another rifle grenade and can shoot two at once
31 Jan 2022, 18:06 PM
#89
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2022, 15:58 PMVipper

That is Per entity, same DPS better RA.

I have not tested but I would guess that 3 CE would beat 2 conscript in straight up fight.

For a engineer unit that is not bad at all.


Its indeed not bad. But as a squad cons are a better unit. Combined with flamer ce's they get really strong, they perfect synergy or combined arms in the early to mid game imo.
1 Feb 2022, 03:09 AM
#90
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

Comparisons to Combat Engineers seem pretty unfair. Combat Engineers get Flamers and can be merged which is so much better, not to mention are cheaper. Echelon can get BARs but are a waste of munitions compared to putting double bars on Riflemen & officers. Likewise, Pioneers can get Flamethrowers. Echelon also have the worst mines. Echelon have some benefits like fighting positions and volley fire but it's definitely worse compared to other engineer units. I would like to see them have more carbine damage, at least early on, but with worse weapon scaling somehow.

1 Feb 2022, 19:51 PM
#91
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

Comparisons to Combat Engineers seem pretty unfair. Combat Engineers get Flamers and can be merged which is so much better, not to mention are cheaper. Echelon can get BARs but are a waste of munitions compared to putting double bars on Riflemen & officers. Likewise, Pioneers can get Flamethrowers. Echelon also have the worst mines. Echelon have some benefits like fighting positions and volley fire but it's definitely worse compared to other engineer units. I would like to see them have more carbine damage, at least early on, but with worse weapon scaling somehow.



Something like an upgrade "Front Line Experience" which would make them better combat troops but had some tradeoff like no sweeper and no 5th man or lower repair speed would be fine I think. Would be essentially same tradeoff Pioneers get by missing out on sweeper bonus repairs.
5 Feb 2022, 11:04 AM
#92
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



Its indeed not bad. But as a squad cons are a better unit. Combined with flamer ce's they get really strong, they perfect synergy or combined arms in the early to mid game imo.

That's just stats manipulation from the user. In reality cons have +50% more models, several combat abilities (molly, oorah and at-nade) and much better scaling. Both naked CEs and REs on their own have pretty poor combat performance and won't hold their own vs any axis squad in the game.
Also in practice CEs, pios and REs have a very high chance of dying when match gets heated, because of 4 models and rather poor RA regardless of vet. This makes Engineers obsolete once opponent has vehicles and elite infantry, or decent amount of properly vetted and equipped mainline infantry. That's why you rarely see flamer on new engies past 15+ minutes, since you'd rather upgrade your infantry, lay mines and use those munies on abilities.
5 Feb 2022, 11:54 AM
#93
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1


That's just stats manipulation from the user. In reality cons have +50% more models, several combat abilities (molly, oorah and at-nade) and much better scaling. Both naked CEs and REs on their own have pretty poor combat performance and won't hold their own vs any axis squad in the game.
Also in practice CEs, pios and REs have a very high chance of dying when match gets heated, because of 4 models and rather poor RA regardless of vet. This makes Engineers obsolete once opponent has vehicles and elite infantry, or decent amount of properly vetted and equipped mainline infantry. That's why you rarely see flamer on new engies past 15+ minutes, since you'd rather upgrade your infantry, lay mines and use those munies on abilities.


Combat engineers can work as your mainline because they cost absurdly cheap and have a flamethrower upgrade, but even without it you can hold your ground

they have 2 models less, but you make 7 to 8 squads at the very least, and you stack multiple of them anywhere you are supposed to fight. Fun tactic
5 Feb 2022, 13:18 PM
#94
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772



Combat engineers can work as your mainline because they cost absurdly cheap and have a flamethrower upgrade, but even without it you can hold your ground

they have 2 models less, but you make 7 to 8 squads at the very least, and you stack multiple of them anywhere you are supposed to fight. Fun tactic

CEs are not cost effective en masse. They only work when paired with cons. Once OST gets mg42s on grens and the guy gets few of those squads, this engie strat becomes too expensive.

Explanation:
min RA for 4 men CEs is 0.77
min RA for 6 men Cons is 0.71 + you can get a 7men upgrade that improves DPS in cover and reduces reinforcement cost by 2 MP

4 men close-mid range squad even with 0.77 RA is pretty easy to lose, especially in mid game. You just focus fire the unit with few squads for few seconds and it is gone, or retreating heavy loses.

I get the 2 engie start, but spam is pretty ineffective.
5 Feb 2022, 15:33 PM
#95
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2



Combat engineers can work as your mainline because they cost absurdly cheap and have a flamethrower upgrade, but even without it you can hold your ground

they have 2 models less, but you make 7 to 8 squads at the very least, and you stack multiple of them anywhere you are supposed to fight. Fun tactic

They don't
You're ignoring the fact that CE have to retreat after losing about two models. This means your army can only lose half their strength until you're incapable. If you retreat Cons the same way, you have to lose 67% of your army until you are pushed off.
CEs don't work as mainline. Not early game, and surely not in the late game.
Instead of spamming a ton of CE squads that you cannot afford flamers for anyway, just build two CE and 3 Conscripts and use merge. Same effect, better fire power, and cheaper on your MP while having the same amount of models on the field
5 Feb 2022, 17:46 PM
#96
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


That's just stats manipulation from the user.

Can you give it rest with the member defamation already?


In reality cons have +50% more models, several combat abilities (molly, oorah and at-nade) and much better scaling. Both naked CEs and REs on their own have pretty poor combat performance and won't hold their own vs any axis squad in the game.

Do you agree that a CE entity and a Conscripts entity have similar DPS ?

Do you agree that CE entity has better RA than a Conscript entity?

There is no stats manipulation here, the only "manipulation" here is done by you about what has been posted.


5 Feb 2022, 20:09 PM
#97
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 772

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2022, 17:46 PMVipper

..

Vipper, COH2 is not SC2. You don't recruit entities, you recruit squads. Also COH2 has veterancy and squads have various of abilities (e.g. cons' have combat abilities, while CE's abilities aimed at utility). The other thing that differentiates COH2 from SC2, is that you rarely trade units in COH2. Hannibal perfectly pointed out how that game design decision influences the gameplay:

You're ignoring the fact that CE have to retreat after losing about two models. This means your army can only lose half their strength until you're incapable. If you retreat Cons the same way, you have to lose 67% of your army until you are pushed off.


BTW Cons at vet 1 have identical RA to vet0 CEs.

If you are asking, which is a better combat unit - 4 vet 0 cons with 1.09 RA or vet0 CEs with 1 RA, my answer would be Cons, because cons have Oorah, AT nade and molly.
5 Feb 2022, 23:03 PM
#98
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Vipper, COH2 is not SC2. You don't recruit entities, you recruit squads. Also COH2 has veterancy and squads have various of abilities (e.g. cons' have combat abilities, while CE's abilities aimed at utility). The other thing that differentiates COH2 from SC2, is that you rarely trade units in COH2. Hannibal perfectly pointed out how that game design decision influences the gameplay:

PLS provide a quote of mine where I claim that one recruits entities and not squads.



BTW Cons at vet 1 have identical RA to vet0 CEs.

If you are asking, which is a better combat unit - 4 vet 0 cons with 1.09 RA or vet0 CEs with 1 RA, my answer would be Cons, because cons have Oorah, AT nade and molly.

PLS stop laying (once more)about what I have posted because I did not post that the 170 CE are a better combat units than 240 conscripts.

You brought into the debate a "4 men conscript squad" I simply point out that they could superior than such a squad.

so apparently stock CE is a decent unit. Literally 4 men con squad, so good. Ok dude.

And to that I quote and replied

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2022, 20:54 PMVipper

They are better at fighting than conscripts, same dps better target size.

So for the cheapest engineer units being as better than their mainline of their faction yes they are a "decent unit".


A CE would be better a 4 conscript because I as I have posted they have better RA and the same DPS. RA is entity value not a squad value, if one want to talk about a squad one has to talk about effective HP.

And I also posted:
jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jan 2022, 15:58 PMVipper

That is Per entity, same DPS better RA.

I have not tested but I would guess that 3 CE would beat 2 conscript in straight up fight.

For a engineer unit that is not bad at all.

So I do not see how you can be confused about what I have posted which certainly not that CE are a better combat unit than conscripts.


Combat engineer remain one of the most cost efficient engineer units so do you actually have point you want or are simply trying to disagree with anything and everything I have posted?
5 Feb 2022, 23:48 PM
#99
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1


They don't
You're ignoring the fact that CE have to retreat after losing about two models. This means your army can only lose half their strength until you're incapable. If you retreat Cons the same way, you have to lose 67% of your army until you are pushed off.
CEs don't work as mainline. Not early game, and surely not in the late game.
Instead of spamming a ton of CE squads that you cannot afford flamers for anyway, just build two CE and 3 Conscripts and use merge. Same effect, better fire power, and cheaper on your MP while having the same amount of models on the field



you are simply bad, and have not made enough engineers.


Baleful
5 Feb 2022, 23:49 PM
#100
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 786 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Feb 2022, 23:03 PMVipper



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