Has anyone noticed Grenadiers are really good?

Imo, from 1vs1 perpective but that's probably true on team game, the issue isn't the grenadier by itself but a combination of at least 3 factors that put together made early game Ostheer >>> Usf.

Big issues of USF in terms of team games are:
1) expensive infantry that has close-mid operating range
2) map design that mostly promotes long range engagements. just design favors HMGs and long range infatnry like grens, guards, obers etc.

You add (1) and (2) together, add the fact that grens are long range + all aggression can be easily diffused by HMG42. Also the fact that you need different tech for HMG and AT gun, only adds salt to the wound.
This pretty much leads to 1 good USF doctrine - Airborne. Paths to spot an HMG, lmg paras to counter grens, and AT/HMG drop to offset teching problems.

Big issues of USF in terms of team games are:
1) expensive infantry that has close-mid operating range
2) map design that mostly promotes long range engagements. just design favors HMGs and long range infatnry like grens, guards, obers etc.

You add (1) and (2) together, add the fact that grens are long range + all aggression can be easily diffused by HMG42. Also the fact that you need different tech for HMG and AT gun, only adds salt to the wound.
This pretty much leads to 1 good USF doctrine - Airborne. Paths to spot an HMG, lmg paras to counter grens, and AT/HMG drop to offset teching problems.

Just had a game where 3 USF atg could't pen frontally a Pz4, no munition = no skill by modding team's book.

Big issues of USF in terms of team games are:
1) expensive infantry that has close-mid operating range
2) map design that mostly promotes long range engagements. just design favors HMGs and long range infatnry like grens, guards, obers etc.

You add (1) and (2) together, add the fact that grens are long range + all aggression can be easily diffused by HMG42. Also the fact that you need different tech for HMG and AT gun, only adds salt to the wound.
This pretty much leads to 1 good USF doctrine - Airborne. Paths to spot an HMG, lmg paras to counter grens, and AT/HMG drop to offset teching problems.

On USF Riflemen first I'd like to point out this is NOT a CQB unit. They happen to be marginally better close in than Grenadiers or unupgraded Volks but that in no way makes them a CQB unit. The "mid-range" niche they're supposed to fill doesn't really manifest itself in practice. In practice they're just terrible as either a close range or long range unit.

Everyone who's played USF for any length of time knows how many retreating sqaud wipes they've missed out on that Grens, Volks, Panzerfiluslers, or any number of other OST/OKW infantry would have made.

On USF Riflemen first I'd like to point out this is NOT a CQB unit. They happen to be marginally better close in than Grenadiers or unupgraded Volks but that in no way makes them a CQB unit. The "mid-range" niche they're supposed to fill doesn't really manifest itself in practice. In practice they're just terrible as either a close range or long range unit.

Everyone who's played USF for any length of time knows how many retreating sqaud wipes they've missed out on that Grens, Volks, Panzerfiluslers, or any number of other OST/OKW infantry would have made.

Yeah, so? USF can have soft retreat with heal and reinforce from T0 and keep pounding the enemy till he drops from tears or from soldiers. Any decent USF player knows that you have until maybe 15min mark to end the game. After the first Obers, LMG42 or even Panther rolls out, it's pretty much gg.

What makes Grens oppressive is their lmg upgrade. Its rather cheap (compared to Obers lmg or 2 bars), has an incredible good timing, good performance and has no extra cost, cause its implemented in the main tech.

Nobrainer upgrade on an already decent and cheap mainline infantry. Has to be put behind t2 imo (while compensating Grens k98 with a small buff) and/or nerfed dps wise.

What makes Grens oppressive is their lmg upgrade. Its rather cheap (compared to Obers lmg or 2 bars), has an incredible good timing, good performance and has no extra cost, cause its implemented in the main tech.

Nobrainer upgrade on an already decent and cheap mainline infantry. Has to be put behind t2 imo (while compensating Grens k98 with a small buff) and/or nerfed dps wise.

It's a strong upgrade to be sure but I don't think it's oppressive. Grens are still the most fragile mainline until they get to vet 3, and even then they still are far from tanky

The lmg42 would be OP as fuck on any other mainline. On grens it's fair IMO because of their fragility

Yeah, so? USF can have soft retreat with heal and reinforce from T0 and keep pounding the enemy till he drops from tears or from soldiers. Any decent USF player knows that you have until maybe 15min mark to end the game. After the first Obers, LMG42 or even Panther rolls out, it's pretty much gg.

Ever heard about Ostheer bunker or 251?

Ever heard about Ostheer bunker or 251?

You mean niche unit #1 and niche building #2?

On USF Riflemen first I'd like to point out this is NOT a CQB unit. They happen to be marginally better close in than Grenadiers or unupgraded Volks but that in no way makes them a CQB unit. The "mid-range" niche they're supposed to fill doesn't really manifest itself in practice. In practice they're just terrible as either a close range or long range unit.

Everyone who's played USF for any length of time knows how many retreating sqaud wipes they've missed out on that Grens, Volks, Panzerfiluslers, or any number of other OST/OKW infantry would have made.

Rifles are close - mid range. Ofc they won't win vs cqc specialists, or PGrens. Maybe the PFuseliers are gonna be a nuisance, but they will do more then fine vs any other infantry, especially Grens or Volks.
BTW cons are truly marginally better close range then Grens. If you think that Rifles "happen to be marginally better close in than Grenadiers" then 6 men cons close range = 5 rifles close range.

Yeah, so? USF can have soft retreat with heal and reinforce from T0 and keep pounding the enemy till he drops from tears or from soldiers. Any decent USF player knows that you have until maybe 15min mark to end the game. After the first Obers, LMG42 or even Panther rolls out, it's pretty much gg.

So we all know Riflemen and/or BARs would have got nerfed ages ago if the situation were reversed.


Nobody with any sense is buying an ambulance before T1/2 unless you're just not taking the game seriously. The T0 ambulance, weapon racks, and grenade upgrades are completely pointless. The first one will put you at a unit disadvantage and delay teching, the last two will do much the same except you won't have the resources to utilize the upgrades that early. For the ambulance all it takes is it's early destruction (which is not hard to do) and it's an early gg.

Bottom line if this community wants USF to be the harder faction, fine I don't really care anymore, but let's just be honest about what we're doing.

All LMG inf should have had their speed nerfed a while ago. No reason they should be moving as fast as other units.

LMG Grens are the best mainline in the game. If 7man Cons weren’t a thing, the distance from the 2nd would be chaotic.

So we all know Riflemen and/or BARs would have got nerfed ages ago if the situation were reversed.


Nobody with any sense is buying an ambulance before T1/2 unless you're just not taking the game seriously. The T0 ambulance, weapon racks, and grenade upgrades are completely pointless. The first one will put you at a unit disadvantage and delay teching, the last two will do much the same except you won't have the resources to utilize the upgrades that early. For the ambulance all it takes is it's early destruction (which is not hard to do) and it's an early gg.

Bottom line if this community wants USF to be the harder faction, fine I don't really care anymore, but let's just be honest about what we're doing.

It is the hardest faction to play, no doubt.

But let's not forget that you're really bad at the game. That counts for a lot.

It is the hardest faction to play, no doubt.

But let's not forget that you're really bad at the game. That counts for a lot.

It's a meme faction mate along with UKF. It's the only faction where you need to backtech to get both MG and ATGs. Their tanks are literally dogshit except Jacksons. Their units are really really good but very manpower heavy and muni intensive since they need those BARS to even be competent. No decent mines, no decent engineer units (REs) and the list goes on.

It basically requires very heavy nerves to play this. But your point still stands, being bad at the game as a whole certainly does not make it easier to survive with USF.

Meme tier factions (serious -> meme)
OST > SOV > OKW > USF >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UKF.

It is the hardest faction to play, no doubt.

But let's not forget that you're really bad at the game. That counts for a lot.

And that means what? I can and do play the other factions as well. I'm fully aware of manpower bleed challenges you can have late game with OKW, or OST. I'm aware of the pop cap issues you can run into with OKW too. Soviet 120mm mortars are annoying to play against as well. But USF is about the only faction where I am consistently short on all resources, particularly fuel, when trying to play against an opponent of similar skill.

The only faction that's worse is UKF without a doubt. But that's a more recent phenomenon and nobody seems to have any problem denying it was deliberately nerfed into the ground.

The only faction that's worse is UKF without a doubt. But that's a more recent phenomenon and nobody seems to have any problem denying it was deliberately nerfed into the ground.

Very true.

I have attempted to play UKF on all gamemodes and over 5 match each. They are just unplayable. Idiotic teching structure, idiotic vehicles, weaker emplacements (that's actually a good thing), muni-intensive infantry, requires doctrine to even be competent. What can I say....

And that means what? I can and do play the other factions as well. I'm fully aware of manpower bleed challenges you can have late game with OKW, or OST. I'm aware of the pop cap issues you can run into with OKW too. Soviet 120mm mortars are annoying to play against as well. But USF is about the only faction where I am consistently short on all resources, particularly fuel, when trying to play against an opponent of similar skill.

The only faction that's worse is UKF without a doubt. But that's a more recent phenomenon and nobody seems to have any problem denying it was deliberately nerfed into the ground.

It means I agree that USF is the hardest to play, and that as a result low-skill players like you will suffer exponentially more unless you improve your fundamentals, and will have a distorted sense of reality about the units' stats.

USF has way more micro tax, more bleed issues, and is generally less forgiving to play, so it exacerbates inadequacies in player skill. An MG42 requires far less input than a 50 cal. A-move grenadiers require far less input than Riflemen, who need to close the difference effectively to minimise bleed while at the same time avoid mg42. Shermans require active round-swapping and need to avoid 20ish range snares from Ost or OKW Pfusiliers.

The units aren't individually bad, but they require more skill to use, which is why the low-skill USF players always complain the game is super unfair. In actuality USF needs a base/faction redesign more than it needs buffs.

Ever since a-move 50 cals and god Howie were toned down, USF has lost all its low-input for high-reward units, while ambulance, pizza base, and backteching for AT gun remain as frustrating as ever. I know the pain, because 50 cals used to take care of themselves while pack howie murdered grens/mgs with autofire alone, giving me plenty of micro/attention to focus on my core infantry and Sherman/Jackson, or to manually unstuck the idiots trapped in the pizza-base.

Tldr: USF isn't *super* weak, it's just slightly weaker. But as a faction it is super difficult for low-skill players to play since most USF units require significant user input to utilise effectively.

...as a faction it is super difficult for low-skill players to play since most USF units require significant user input to utilise effectively.

Can confirm: am low skilled, started COH2 playing USF and had a hard time every game. SOV is more forgiving, fun, and it has more commander options to boot.

Can confirm: am low skilled, started COH2 playing USF and had a hard time every game. SOV is more forgiving, fun, and it has more commander options to boot.

Soviets are already stronger and easier to play than USF but Guard Motor just makes life easy at any elo bracket.

Soviets are already stronger and easier to play than USF but Guard Motor just makes life easy at any elo bracket.

Guard Motor, Industry, Shock Army (120mm mortars basically) are easy ggs after 20 min mark. ISU-152 is also very decent late game tank if you get that far.

I asked why the Ost MG42 is so OP, while they also have the best mortar, and an amazing AT gun. The response was "Because they have weak infantry, so they need better support weapons". This is a flat out lie. Last time I played as USF, LMG Grens were cutting my riflemen to pieces before they could force the God tier MG42 to retreat. They also have the best snare, best none doctrine LMG, and the best magic grenade that wipes retreating squads. The faction as a whole is overperforming.