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Don't Ruin CoH2 Assymetry

11 Nov 2021, 17:56 PM
#1
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 593

To keep it short:

CoH is an assymetrical game so balance is not as simple as "...we adjusted unit X to better align with..." And all forum posters and balance modders should not ruin the uniqueness of every faction in the name of balance, because every unit is for a particular team, has different enemies, different themes, different roles in their respective factions, different allies, and different part of an army composition.

Riflemen are not the same as Grenadiers for example because Riflemen face MG42s while Grens face tougher mid range infantry squads, and Riflemen are part of a mobile aggressive faction and Grens are part of a combined arms defensive faction.

Thus, don't compare and balance units from different factions. Otherwise you don't get coh you get some typical rts game that most of us don't want to play
11 Nov 2021, 20:19 PM
#2
avatar of Ægion
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 750 | Subs: 2

If you want to have some fun, my mod somehow make the game more Symmetrical and Asymmetrical at the time.
11 Nov 2021, 21:06 PM
#3
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1743 | Subs: 2

CoH is an assymetrical

Yes Coh is well balanced ass. :foreveralone:
12 Nov 2021, 02:11 AM
#4
avatar of didimegadudu

Posts: 63

riflemen still too OP upclose
12 Nov 2021, 04:03 AM
#5
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


Riflemen are not the same as Grenadiers for example because Riflemen face MG42s while Grens face tougher mid range infantry squads, and Riflemen are part of a mobile aggressive faction and Grens are part of a combined arms defensive faction.

It shouldnt be too asymmetrical either though

For example this point about riflemen and MG42s was undoubtedly part of the justification for riflemen having smoke when they first launched. That was OP as fuck so it got removed

Coh2 has struggled a lot with asymmetry. You need it in order to keep the flavor of the game but it clearly can create a lot of balance nightmares
12 Nov 2021, 08:34 AM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13178 | Subs: 1

Imo two different things are being confused.

One can compare unit with similar roles but that does not mean that they have serve that role in a similar manner.

Balance has more to do with how cost efficient a unit is it role and less with means it uses to achieve that role.

In addition one has to keep in mind faction design. Faction can be more cost efficient in certain area and less cost efficient in others.
12 Nov 2021, 09:30 AM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3164 | Subs: 7

From a different thread, but relevant:
Seriously if players like you keep balancing units symmetrically you will ruin the uniqueness of the units for the rest of us.

This is unfortunately how many of the balance changes were cuz non-designers made them



Coh2 has struggled a lot with asymmetry. You need it in order to keep the flavor of the game but it clearly can create a lot of balance nightmares


This. (Relic) Game devs / designers are by no means some kind of unfailable balance gods.
Relic game devs/designers made a huge mistake in CoH2 (and vCoH) expansion factions by trying to make them drastically asymmetric by taking away certain stock basic tools (anti-garrison, snares, rocket artillery, etc.) and making them rely on overpowered crutch units/mechanics to make up for it. It totally did not work. And as a result they/we've had to bandaid these terrible design choices ever since, with multiple larger and smaller faction reworks and countless smaller changes.

This is in stark contrast with both games' orginal factions, USF vs Wehrmacht and Ostheer vs Soviets, which were symmetrical in basic design (access to all the basic tools) but felt asymmetrical by extention (different tech, veterancy, etc.) and were pretty well balanced against each other up until the expansion factions joined in.


Relic has now acknowledged this mistake and will strive in CoH3 to give all factions the same basic tools, and then have the asymmetry / unique faction aspects come from other sources (veterancy system, tech, etc.) or by shaping said basic tools into something that works mechanically differently but serves the same purpose. No more drastical asymmetry for the sake of variety. It just doesn't work.
12 Nov 2021, 09:39 AM
#8
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13178 | Subs: 1

From a different thread, but relevant:






This. (Relic) Game devs / designers are by no means some kind of unfailable balance gods.
Relic game devs/designers made a huge mistake in CoH2 (and vCoH) expansion factions by trying to make them drastically asymmetric by taking away certain stock basic tools (anti-garrison, snares, rocket artillery, etc.) and making them rely on overpowered crutch units/mechanics to make up for it. It totally did not work. And as a result they/we've had to bandaid these terrible design choices ever since, with multiple larger and smaller faction reworks and countless smaller changes.

Relic has now acknowledged this mistake and will strive in CoH3 to give all factions the same basic tools, and then have the asymmetry / unique faction aspects come from other sources (veterancy system, tech, etc.) or by shaping said basic tools into something that works mechanically differently but serves the same purpose.



I do not think I completely agree. (UKF where and still are badly designed...)

Imo most problems derived more from the scale of balance changes and less from any design issues.
Unit where either buffed through the roof or "hit with nerf hammer" and send to oblivion. That meant with every new patch system suffered a shock. Patches seemed to shift meta instead of finding the right spot for units.

The same issue continued with the early community patches.

Other issues were the hugh number of bugs and the great impact of some random events, things that should had smoothed out very early.
12 Nov 2021, 11:15 AM
#9
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 529

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Nov 2021, 09:39 AMVipper

I do not think I completely agree. (UKF where and still are badly designed...)

Imo most problems derived more from the scale of balance changes and less from any design issues.
Unit where either buffed through the roof or "hit with nerf hammer" and send to oblivion. That meant with every new patch system suffered a shock. Patches seemed to shift meta instead of finding the right spot for units.

The same issue continued with the early community patches.

Other issues were the hugh number of bugs and the great impact of some random events, things that should had smoothed out very early.


I got to agree, right now it feels as if mainlines specifically conscripts and grens overperform for their cost. Once they get their upgrades they are way to efficient, both units have pretty much made elites of their respective factions afterthoughts. OKW kind of needs them to help with VG performance fall off and USF just bleed too much to make it work.

Problem is players want what the other has so like vipper said some buffs/nerfs are to big and seem to mostly change meta instead of letting multiple strats openings be viable.
12 Nov 2021, 15:44 PM
#10
avatar of WhiteFlash
Senior Mapmaker Badge
Benefactor 119

Posts: 1278 | Subs: 1

+1

From a different thread, but relevant:





This. (Relic) Game devs / designers are by no means some kind of unfailable balance gods.
Relic game devs/designers made a huge mistake in CoH2 (and vCoH) expansion factions by trying to make them drastically asymmetric by taking away certain stock basic tools (anti-garrison, snares, rocket artillery, etc.) and making them rely on overpowered crutch units/mechanics to make up for it. It totally did not work. And as a result they/we've had to bandaid these terrible design choices ever since, with multiple larger and smaller faction reworks and countless smaller changes.

This is in stark contrast with both games' orginal factions, USF vs Wehrmacht and Ostheer vs Soviets, which were symmetrical in basic design (access to all the basic tools) but felt asymmetrical by extention (different tech, veterancy, etc.) and were pretty well balanced against each other up until the expansion factions joined in.


Relic has now acknowledged this mistake and will strive in CoH3 to give all factions the same basic tools, and then have the asymmetry / unique faction aspects come from other sources (veterancy system, tech, etc.) or by shaping said basic tools into something that works mechanically differently but serves the same purpose. No more drastical asymmetry for the sake of variety. It just doesn't work.
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