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Lefh 105

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14 Dec 2021, 11:24 AM
#41
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1


The LeFH being dominant over the ML20 was one of the main reasons why you could see the LeFH in team games, but rarely the ML20. If you build an ML20, you usually got counter artied and lost the duel, feeding even more XP to the LeFH.

Pre-patch, CB was playing into this as well, as well as the Elefant being in the same doctrine as the Stuka dive bomb. However, if those were not available, counter arty is not just a soft counter, but the only counter you have. Especially on some maps like Essen, Hamburg and Angermunde which are hard to flank and go into the backline of your opponent.
Also these static howitzers are cheap and sturdy enough that sacrificing a medium for them is not really worth it if it is enough in the first place.

I am not sure if that hold much water. One the most popular soviet commanders is Soviet Combined Arms Army that combines ml-20/reckon/IL-2 bombing that could clear LeFH.

I would guess that is Soviet did/do build less ml-20s is related to the fact that there are more option available to allies teams for arty like B4,Priest, Sexton, calliope, Land mattress or the fact that soviet have access to super heavies so they might choose to go for them instead.

On the other hand Axis are in need of counters to 120mm/Pak howizter/emplacements.

In any case is rather easy to delete howitzer with off maps which UKF/USF officer can easily reveal so I don't that usage speaks volumes about value.

On the other hand I do agree that removing counter barrage was a (probably justified) nerf to LeFH.

14 Dec 2021, 12:08 PM
#42
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2844 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2021, 11:14 AMVipper

XP used to be directly tied to cost.

Most patches that change the cost of unit did not change the XP values accordingly while some units had the XP changed so currently XP value are mess.


XP values of entities

Grenadier 60
Riflemen 56
IS 54
VG 50
Conscripts 40

XP value of entity itself is enough to determine only in wipes. In the case that squad survives one has to take into the total damage dealt multiplied XP so a weapon firing on conscripts squad probably has to deal 1.5X damage to gain the same veterancy as firing on grenadier squad.

But what I did not claim that ML-20 vet faster , I simply pointed out that I see no reason why LeFH would vet faster.

From my experience OKW trucks are a prime target for ML-20/120mm mortar since the are big and have high XP value and if one want to gain veterancy one should aim for them.

You didn't say that the LeFH vetted faster than the ML20, but you pointed out that Soviet models give less XP without the context of larger Soviet squads. It doesn't matter how much XP the single model gives, but how much a shot gives. With Soviet squads being 1.5x times larger than Ostheer ones, it makes sense that Ostheer squads need to yield 1.5x times more XP, because larger squads have a higher chance of being hit due to covering a larger area and you hit more models in general. How this plays out in detail from shots hitting in the middle of the squad to only clipping some models with their far AoE is difficult to answer. Maybe MMX knows more, but I remember him saying that TTK (in the case of infantry vs heavy tanks) does not depend on the squad size. But again, the only things I wanted to point out is:
1. Soviet infantry yielding less XP is a necessity due to larger squad sizes.
2. USF and UKF exist, which yield fairly high XP values compared to Soviets.

As a last point, there are also Soviet Penals builds which combine both high cost and large squad size.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Dec 2021, 11:24 AMVipper

I am not sure if that hold much water. One the most popular soviet commanders is Soviet Combined Arms Army that combines ml-20/reckon/IL-2 bombing that could clear LeFH.

I would guess that is Soviet did/do build less ml-20s is related to the fact that there are more option available to allies teams for arty like B4,Priest, Sexton, calliope, Land mattress or the fact that soviet have access to super heavies so they might choose to go for them instead.

On the other hand Axis are in need of counters to 120mm/Pak howizter/emplacements.

In any case is rather easy to delete howitzer with off maps which UKF/USF officer can easily reveal so I don't that usage speaks volumes about value.

On the other hand I do agree that removing counter barrage was a (probably justified) nerf to LeFH.

The dive bomb has been removed from Jager Armor specifically after the community requested it to be, because artillery to bleed out your opponent was one of the few counters to Elefant builds.
Sextons and Priests surely are a contributing factor. But if you look at the commanders in Ostheer and OKW back in March-June and the fact that your ML20 when in doubt would lose the shoot out (at that time especially with CB), it is not surprising that ML20s are not popular.

At least in the current build, Axis have a very good counter to emplacements and infantry based arty with OKW's Stuka.
14 Dec 2021, 12:42 PM
#43
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13187 | Subs: 1


You didn't say that the LeFH vetted faster than the ML20, but you pointed out that Soviet models give less XP without the context of larger Soviet squads. It doesn't matter how much XP the single model gives, but how much a shot gives. With Soviet squads being 1.5x times larger than Ostheer ones, it makes sense that Ostheer squads need to yield 1.5x times more XP, because larger squads have a higher chance of being hit due to covering a larger area and you hit more models in general. How this plays out in detail from shots hitting in the middle of the squad to only clipping some models with their far AoE is difficult to answer. Maybe MMX knows more, but I remember him saying that TTK (in the case of infantry vs heavy tanks) does not depend on the squad size. But again, the only things I wanted to point out is:
1. Soviet infantry yielding less XP is a necessity due to larger squad sizes.
2. USF and UKF exist, which yield fairly high XP values compared to Soviets.

As a last point, there are also Soviet Penals builds which combine both high cost and large squad size.

My point is that there in nothing to support the theory that Lefh vet faster.

If you want to talk about XP gain taking damage also contributes XP so in a case of grenadier vs conscript things are a bit complicated.

I have not tested but I am assume that one would have to inflict equal (or even above since one will probably awarded more XP for a kill than damage) total x1.5 to conscript squad to get the same amount as grenadier squad. One might be able to get that much damage if a squad is clumped up but I doubt one would be able in normal spacing.

I you are interested in exploring it more I suggest testing it or try to theorize using the scatter tool.

The dive bomb has been removed from Jager Armor specifically after the community requested it to be, because artillery to bleed out your opponent was one of the few counters to Elefant builds.

Yes had pointed out that this abilities should be removed even from the first commander revamp (2018) and unfortunately took several year before it was implemented.
https://www.coh2.org/topic/81270/commander-rework-approach


Sextons and Priests surely are a contributing factor. But if you look at the commanders in Ostheer and OKW back in March-June and the fact that your ML20 when in doubt would lose the shoot out (at that time especially with CB), it is not surprising that ML20s are not popular.

My point is that according to the available stats and for the time they avaiable Combined Arms Army remain one of the most popular soviet commander in load-outs and that is because of the ML20 and the synergy with rest of the abilities.

In sort I doubt that ML-20 does not somehow cut it. Else people would not bother having it in their load out.


At least in the current build, Axis have a very good counter to emplacements and infantry based arty with OKW's Stuka.

Yes they have, vet 1 ability is quite good.

I personally would still rather use an Lefh if my opponent does not have off map counter.
14 Dec 2021, 18:07 PM
#44
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 216

seems like this thread has been completely derailed from original intention.

lock whenever you please mods.
15 Dec 2021, 05:52 AM
#45
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

Thing always amazes me is that all arty can be spammed so easily (in team games ofc.). Can't we just cap them at max 1 or 2?


I have always wondered why this has never happened same with rocket arty. I find lefh however more cancerous because in team games ost can spam no pop bunkers to hold the line and its silly how effective that is in team games with okw partners with a bunch of trucks in the way compounded by allies not necesarily maybe having rocket arty besides soviets and axis always having it available.

dont get me wrong though id get rid of ALL arty and limit it to at least 2 or 1 for heavy arty and rocket arty.

So I could careless about making the lefh more exciting or adding new abilitys to it
15 Dec 2021, 09:28 AM
#46
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

Well, To OP. OKW Lefh should have HEAT barrage.
+ HEAT barrage range is 80% compare to normal barrage to avoid sniping base buildings.
+ 3-4 shell per barrage. Fast projector.
+ Very small AoE, high pen.
+ scatter is same at Jadtiger HE barrage.
+ Damage cap at 200-220 damage.
+ Cost 40 ammo. sharing cooldown with normal barrage.
That is my idea but still, OKW Lefh stayed on 2 well rounded commander. Lefh + sector assault/ zeroing arty + King Tiger push is super lethal..... Right now, airburst shell barrage could hold enemies stay on ability zone and force them mass retreat.

15 Dec 2021, 13:53 PM
#47
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1115

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2021, 05:52 AMRocket


I have always wondered why this has never happened same with rocket arty. I find lefh however more cancerous because in team games ost can spam no pop bunkers to hold the line and its silly how effective that is in team games with okw partners with a bunch of trucks in the way compounded by allies not necesarily maybe having rocket arty besides soviets and axis always having it available.

dont get me wrong though id get rid of ALL arty and limit it to at least 2 or 1 for heavy arty and rocket arty.

So I could careless about making the lefh more exciting or adding new abilitys to it


I would gladly accept such a change, however it will never happen. The reason is that 3v3 and 4v4 will be emptied since there will be no more spam fest of Rocket arty and TD.

Right now, on shitty maps like Hamburg or Shitball the meta is simple: cap fuel, camp 4mgs, tech quickly, spam 2-3 tank destroyers the rest pop goes to rocket arty.

I have seen players having like 6-7 rocket arty, 2 TD and maybe 1-2 engies for repair on 4v4. It is fucking ridiculous and is the reason I have stopped playing 3v3 and 4v4.
15 Dec 2021, 14:33 PM
#48
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2021, 09:28 AMtheekvn

+ HEAT barrage range is 80% compare to normal barrage to avoid sniping base buildings.


I'd vote for a restriction on base shelling. Just like you can't call off-map arty strikes inside the base sector the game should prohibit players for calling barrages inside the base sector.
15 Dec 2021, 14:38 PM
#49
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885



I'd vote for a restriction on base shelling. Just like you can't call off-map arty strikes inside the base sector the game should prohibit players for calling barrages inside the base sector.

+1 for blocking base shelling. As an aside can we do something about abilities like Air Superiority destroying structures (esp HQs) on the edge of the HQ sector due to the trail of bombs? Lost a Flak HQ to one such case. Or is that too late now?
15 Dec 2021, 15:04 PM
#50
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 712 | Subs: 1

>you will never be shelled by LEFHs again
>but you will never shell the jerry back

tough choice
15 Dec 2021, 15:12 PM
#51
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1115

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Dec 2021, 15:04 PMKatukov
>you will never be shelled by LEFHs again
>but you will never shell the jerry back

tough choice


lmao
15 Dec 2021, 16:56 PM
#52
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 712 | Subs: 1

nvm if base shelling was removed it would be 80% an allies buff
15 Dec 2021, 17:34 PM
#53
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1


+1 for blocking base shelling. As an aside can we do something about abilities like Air Superiority destroying structures (esp HQs) on the edge of the HQ sector due to the trail of bombs? Lost a Flak HQ to one such case. Or is that too late now?

Probably too late. I would love if they could though, especially for tracking loiters too

If the pass starts before they get the HQ and it takes some damage as it arrives that's one thing. Really annoying when a tank you thought they couldn't see suddenly gets wrecked by p47s/stuka when it's already deep in your base
15 Dec 2021, 19:58 PM
#54
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 216

why ain't this thread closed yet? do i have to get down on my knees begging? o_O

mods be so kind to LOCK/CLOSE thread
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