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PTRS detonating mines underneath tanks?

13 Oct 2021, 13:44 PM
#1
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305

Just a weird experience I had a few games ago, was playing Whiteball against a soviet player who went PTRS penals and just about 3 times, the PTRS detonated a mine underneath my vechicle.

There weren't engineers around to reveal the mines or anything.

Did I just get bad luck and a scatter shot hit the mine? Or is it something else?
13 Oct 2021, 14:08 PM
#2
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 250

i didnt even think that was possible, damn


you got unlucky i suppose, was it your own mines?
13 Oct 2021, 14:24 PM
#3
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2452 | Subs: 2

Just a weird experience I had a few games ago, was playing Whiteball against a soviet player who went PTRS penals and just about 3 times, the PTRS detonated a mine underneath my vechicle.

There weren't engineers around to reveal the mines or anything.

Did I just get bad luck and a scatter shot hit the mine? Or is it something else?

I assume this is new since PTRS went from hit scan to ballistic recently.
I assume a missed shot triggered the mine.
13 Oct 2021, 15:48 PM
#4
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112

What Hannibal has said. PTSR can now ground target. Ground is where the mines are. 2+2 = 5
13 Oct 2021, 17:22 PM
#5
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305

What Hannibal has said. PTSR can now ground target. Ground is where the mines are. 2+2 = 5


Yeah except he didn't have engineers to spot them nor did he at any point. Read post next time 4head :rolleyes:
13 Oct 2021, 20:00 PM
#6
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112



Yeah except he didn't have engineers to spot them nor did he at any point. Read post next time 4head :rolleyes:


What are you on about? I didn't say that he specifically ground targeted them. The whole mechanic was changed. Same as how sometimes when you shoot at a tank over the frozen lake, it sinks. In this case, he was shooting at your tank and with a bit of luck, he shot at the mine, triggering it. This would not happen in the "before patch" PTSR mechanic.
13 Oct 2021, 20:19 PM
#7
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305



What are you on about? I didn't say that he specifically ground targeted them. The whole mechanic was changed. Same as how sometimes when you shoot at a tank over the frozen lake, it sinks. In this case, he was shooting at your tank and with a bit of luck, he shot at the mine, triggering it. This would not happen in the "before patch" PTSR mechanic.


Ah. My bad. You're referring to a specific mechanic. I thought you were just referring to attack ground. That's what I was thinking it was, but still if that's the case it's a bit silly.
14 Oct 2021, 08:13 AM
#8
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2452 | Subs: 2



Ah. My bad. You're referring to a specific mechanic. I thought you were just referring to attack ground. That's what I was thinking it was, but still if that's the case it's a bit silly.

Why? It is a normal missed shot. It hit the mine, goes through a penetration role and passed. That's how all ballistic shots have worked for ages (probably already since release).
In this case it was unlucky for you, on the other hand it was avoidable by not standing on your own mine, although I understand that it is not that intuitive for PTRS shots, especially since they only work like this for a short time.
14 Oct 2021, 19:07 PM
#9
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1


Why? It is a normal missed shot

In fairness, ptrs shots don't usually miss either. To the point where I'm having a hard time believing it was caused by a miss

The miss only makes sense if it was attack ground shot. When left up to accuracy ptrs have a 84% chance of hitting a kubel. Against most other targets it's 100%

Edit: ^that was using their old accuracy, as of winter patch it's even higher. I think it's literally impossible for a ptrs to miss a vehicle unless you're using attack ground (penal ptrs far accuracy is 0.16 according to patchnotes)
15 Oct 2021, 15:25 PM
#10
avatar of Hannibal
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Posts: 2452 | Subs: 2


In fairness, ptrs shots don't usually miss either. To the point where I'm having a hard time believing it was caused by a miss

The miss only makes sense if it was attack ground shot. When left up to accuracy ptrs have a 84% chance of hitting a kubel. Against most other targets it's 100%

Edit: ^that was using their old accuracy, as of winter patch it's even higher. I think it's literally impossible for a ptrs to miss a vehicle unless you're using attack ground (penal ptrs far accuracy is 0.16 according to patchnotes)

Right, I forgot about that.
During tests, I sometimes had instances of a tank not hitting its target because there was already a crater from a previous shot.
Maybe some terrain issues were going on here, too.

Or technically (high speculation), it could be a hit on the tank with AoE penetration triggering the mine, if the stats allow for that.
15 Oct 2021, 15:29 PM
#11
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1112


Right, I forgot about that.
During tests, I sometimes had instances of a tank not hitting its target because there was already a crater from a previous shot.
Maybe some terrain issues were going on here, too.


Who knows what this is. The game is complex as it is with the terrain manager, projectiles and whatnot. Maybe a bug, maybe some new "feature" due to the PTSR change. Who knows. What I am certain about, is that this is such a rare occasion that it's not really worth a whole thread about it
15 Oct 2021, 18:37 PM
#12
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305



Who knows what this is. The game is complex as it is with the terrain manager, projectiles and whatnot. Maybe a bug, maybe some new "feature" due to the PTSR change. Who knows. What I am certain about, is that this is such a rare occasion that it's not really worth a whole thread about it


I just didn't know it was a thing + I haven't been able to replicate it. I really regret not having saved the replay.
15 Oct 2021, 18:42 PM
#13
avatar of rumartinez89

Posts: 224

Do ballistics have splash damage? It could have triggered from actually hitting the tank and being within the aoe.
15 Oct 2021, 19:06 PM
#14
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3233 | Subs: 1

What I am certain about, is that this is such a rare occasion that it's not really worth a whole thread about it

Is that why you posted in the thread 3 times? :rolleyes:
15 Oct 2021, 19:18 PM
#15
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Oct 2021, 14:08 PMKatukov
i didnt even think that was possible, damn


you got unlucky i suppose, was it your own mines?


They were my own tellers yes.
15 Oct 2021, 19:47 PM
#16
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 250



They were my own tellers yes.

ouch
Vaz
16 Oct 2021, 14:53 PM
#17
avatar of Vaz

Posts: 1124

It's unlikely anyone will be able to explain this to you with proof out of the code, but experience can explain a lot.

When coh1 first came out, they promoted the destructible environments heavily. This is important because I have an opinion that I have never been able to prove true, but it describes the activity in the game.

Something deep into the way they program coh or maybe it's engine, Essence sends ordinance at certain things with more affinity. These are "accidents" as seen by players. The issue with your mines are just part of a larger phenomena you will notice if you pay attention.

Others are:

  • Plane crashes
  • engineer squad types


So what will happen with planes is that the game will calculate hits on the plane such that it can be placed on a trajectory with player or world objects. I know it sounds conspiracy theorist, but keep in mind that it got so bad in coh2 that we had to make plane crashes not cause damage to player objects. Of all the places planes could crash, the game likes to send planes into objects, instead of crashing the plane where there is nothing.

Why is this? It's because of what they promoted earlier in destructible environments. They want the player to have that epic experience where all kinds of stuff happened in the destructible environment. In your real life experience, you likely did not see real random events go down like this. There have been accidents in your life. You've seen someone lose control of a car, or a bike, or maybe just trip. IRL the common occurrence is that the car crashed in a ditch or maybe hit a gaurd or pole. If Essence controlled reality, most cars out of control would get sent into crowds of people, traffic, or into store fronts(full of people).

Pay attention to the plane crashes in your game. You will see most if not all crashes intersect with some object. Not just grazing or a near miss, things get nailed perfectly.

The game also likes to kill engineers. I'm not sure why this is, it's really strange, but engineer units attract extra fire. This comes in the form of missed or stray shots which just so happen to hit the squad members. You can see some proof of this bias when you play the AI. Watch how the AI behaves when in relation to your other infantry types. The AI will take risks to hunt your engineer units, but will avoid all others. This is true regardless of faction.

Coming around full circle, let's talk about mines. The game sends stray shots into mines. In order to do this, the stray shots need to be in the scatter zone. Any missed shots will prefer to nail the mine, this affinity increases if you are fighting on the mine. I've seen it time and time again, because I place a lot of heavy mines with the m20, but it also happened a lot in coh1. It happens more in Coh2 though. If you fight near a mine, the game will send the misses at the mine.

I expect most will see me as crazy, but remember the now 0 damage or 1 meter area plane crashes, because planes keep "happening" to fall on squads over and over. I've had to completely change my tactics for mine laying over time to make sure that I don't have fights near critical mines. I've had so many instances of missed panzer 4 shots getting directed at the mines, then the player escapes what otherwise would have been a lost tank.

Teammates would come to my mine fields to "help" and sit on the mine to fight. Usually with their most expensive unit. Next time I look, there is a smoking mess or a disabled tank, dead blob, w/e. If you fight directly on the mine, anything that damages your vehicle will typically cause damage to the mine too, so don't do it.






TLDR: stay the fuck away from your mines after you lay them
16 Oct 2021, 15:11 PM
#18
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 305

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2021, 14:53 PMVaz
...The game sends stray shots into mines. In order to do this, the stray shots need to be in the scatter zone. Any missed shots will prefer to nail the mine, this affinity increases if you are fighting on the mine.


jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2021, 14:53 PMVaz
...TLDR: stay the fuck away from your mines after you lay them


See now I knew that it was a thing that tanks, when they get hit by AT guns, bazookas, or other tanks can sometimes detonate mines underneath the tank. I just didn't know that PTRS can do that, but also I haven't been able to replicate it in testing, so it's weird to me.
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