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russian armor

Soviet AT Over Watch is too strong.

6 Sep 2021, 16:17 PM
#61
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177

I also think that this ability is very, very good. A small nerf is in order for me. When supporting an attack it is just so efficient in finishing tanks that have already been hit 1-2 times. Even in a failed attack it allows you to secure a kill or two, especially if your opponent needs to micro his infantry as well.
When playing with friends in 2v2 and 3v3 as Allies, one of us almost always picks it, and I rarely saw it as a mistake.

Anecdotal:
I also remember playing against a 3v3 team that always comboed AT overwatch, USF's P47 loiter and the (pre nerf) UKF early warning flares across the whole frontline. It was a huge investment, but it basically always deleted a couple of tanks and forced us to abandon the front line almost completely.


So Did you considered about zeroing too? It is same type but more effective to multiple target in the area include infantry while ATOW shared its shell to multiple target with targeting only a tank(more target = less effective).

May you also considered about okw sector assualt combined with zeroing too? that wiped entire tank and infantry or forced to retreat?.

and german defensive arty that provided cover to all friendly sector with off map arty that can bombard all target/area in same time while similar skill like primitive overwatch that fire from UKF base arty so it can only provided cover to 1 area in same time and need to wait for it aimming before barrage begin.

There used to have a reason of nerf something because It powerful when combined with other ability without considered other perspective such as it will become worthless when use it alone without combined with other.






as you seen in this video.
A lot of shot was bourced off.
A lot of shot was misses.
6 Sep 2021, 17:54 PM
#62
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 493



Zeroing dont auto aim on units, zeroing has friendly fire, zeroing takes like 5+ seconds charning up before it actually start being devastating.

Zeroing is just another artillery ability, which works like any other artillery based ability except it needs constant vision.

Abilities are closest to overwatch - all plane based abilities, but unlike auto-aiming planes AT overwatch cant be countered by AA and it cant be doudged.


Zeroing does all of those things. And if you watch the posted videos from click to first shot on the ground is about 5 seconds for AT overwatch. So again, AT overwatch has the same counters, back out of the circle. If someone has hit you well with this ability it was as well planned as most zeroing strikes are as you need to maintain vision and keep the units in the circle. With ram no longer causing immobilizations that's not the easy task some here are claiming it is. That and its been shown that the more tanks in the circle the LESS effect the ability has. This ability has zero guarantee of working so I don't see how that can be an auto OP label.
6 Sep 2021, 17:59 PM
#63
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1



It tracks the enemy, not really auto-aims on the units. For instance its still possible to reatreat from zerroing circle (at least untill it fully rumps up) since it wont always hit directly into the center of the unit. Its just very chaotic and fast so it look like it always auto-aims.

It doesn't look like it auto aims it does auto aim... Test it yourself if you put units on the edge of the radius and leave the center empty, you don't see any shells fall in the middle. As I said you are correct about the delay, but that's it. Everything else you are saying is misleading

Just because the shells have scatter does not mean they don't auto-aim....


AT overwatch on the other hand never misses the target, it auto-locks on it and hits in the center of the model.

It can miss it's just more accurate because its faster. It only shoots vehicles which can relocate faster than infantry, and vehicles are larger targets so it's harder to miss


In any case, over-all chances of dying to Zeroing is pretty much the same as to most arty abilities if you stay for the whole direction in the bombardment zone.

That is simply not true. Other artillery abilities rely more on RNG and complete chance of where a target is standing. Infantry units that stay in zeroing zone (and are revealed) are guaranteed to die

In the past I have combined specops flares with Zeroing from a teammate to destroy howitzers. It was guaranteed to work every time, allbeit for quite a cost

Imo all of these abilities could use reworks, but it's probably too late. And I don't dispute that AT overwatch is broken
6 Sep 2021, 18:04 PM
#64
avatar of TanithScout

Posts: 60

I have been seeing AT over watch commanders more often recently and so I have been encountering the AT over watch ability more frequently. It is insanely powerful, the first time I encountered it I was astonished by how much damage it does to even the heaviest of vehicles. First off it is very cheap for what it does, it costs the same as Stuka close air, but it can target all the tanks in the circle and obviously it cannot be shot down like Stukas can, so there is no counter to it. I know that vision is required to maintain fire, but vision can be had with overflight, flairs or you can even sacrifice a couple infantry squads for the cause to maintain vision. Secondly and what I think is most egregious is how fast the ramp up time is. It shoots faster and faster so quickly that something like an Elefant has no chance to escape, and if you're tanks are close together and the map is narrow then you can say goodbye to several of your tanks as they try to path find their way away. Even if you manage to escape the barrage without losing anything all your tanks will be so weak that the inevitable tank push that fallows will kill whatever survived. I'm not saying that AT Over Watch is an "I win button" but when used properly it can shred any German tank force and leave you extremely vulnerable very late in the game.
I think there are a few things that could be done to try and balance this ability. An obvious solution would be to just increase the price. I don't think this would solve the problem though, Even if it was 300 muni I think it would still be a no brainer to use and building a few muni caches will still allow you use it with relative frequency. I think the best solution would be to slow the ramp up time. I know it is an ability to punish a stagnant front line of tanks, but even when you move it is extremely damaging. I think a damage debuff could also be an effective solution. I just feel like this ability shouldn't be able to destroy a heavy tank all on it's own when other AT attacks have no chance of doing so.



You havn't played vs Axis AT loiters, have you?
6 Sep 2021, 18:08 PM
#65
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312

Maybe they shouldn't have made heavy TDs/tanks to be meta in team games if they want to nerf anti-tank overwath as a natural counter to the strat

Is it that difficult to drive away when most of your tanks are more than fast enough? or having a frontline to eradicate SOV dives before AT overwatch ramps in full force?


Just

a

thought
6 Sep 2021, 19:06 PM
#66
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 189

Maybe they shouldn't have made heavy TDs/tanks to be meta in team games if they want to nerf anti-tank overwath as a natural counter to the strat

Is it that difficult to drive away when most of your tanks are more than fast enough? or having a frontline to eradicate SOV dives before AT overwatch ramps in full force?


Just

a

thought


And why do you think heavy TD's/tanks are meta?

just
a
poke
6 Sep 2021, 19:44 PM
#67
avatar of Grim

Posts: 997



And why do you think heavy TD's/tanks are meta?

just
a
poke


Because outside of the ISU and the 17Pdr (lol) there are no clear counters or peers to the Jagd and the Ele. So it's easy to see why they are picked so often.

Plus pzfussies and Assault arty are insane in team games.

Why wouldn't you pick a unit that the enemy has scarcely any counter to beyond diving with tanks ill suited for doing so in the comparatively small maps of Coh2.
6 Sep 2021, 20:36 PM
#68
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 189

ATO sure is very powerful, borderline to OP, 1 player with such ability is fine, but when you have 2+ players in 4v4 having ATO or similar, its just insane.

although you can somewhat ''soft'' counter ATO with vision denial, escape the circle etc, there is no ''hard'' counter to ATO, that is something worth debating
6 Sep 2021, 20:54 PM
#69
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312

ATO sure is very powerful, borderline to OP, 1 player with such ability is fine, but when you have 2+ players in 4v4 having ATO or similar, its just insane.

although you can somewhat ''soft'' counter ATO with vision denial, escape the circle etc, there is no ''hard'' counter to ATO, that is something worth debating


half the enemy is stuck with stock soviet armor and you still find ways to lose by playing into the enemy gimmick ability

if you stack any ability then it becomes insane lol that's not an argument point
6 Sep 2021, 20:59 PM
#70
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 189



half the enemy is stuck with stock soviet armor and you still find ways to lose by playing into the enemy gimmick ability

if you stack any ability then it becomes insane lol that's not an argument point


and by this standard you also regard Sturmtiger to be balanced?
6 Sep 2021, 21:26 PM
#71
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 483

Maybe they shouldn't have made heavy TDs/tanks to be meta in team games if they want to nerf anti-tank overwath as a natural counter to the strat

Is it that difficult to drive away when most of your tanks are more than fast enough? or having a frontline to eradicate SOV dives before AT overwatch ramps in full force?


Just

a

thought


Most of the people who complain lack the capacity to think rationally.
6 Sep 2021, 22:23 PM
#72
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 79



Most of the people who complain lack the capacity to think rationally.

Axis players can't think rationally, or play well.They compensate for that by playing as the stronger factions, makes sense.
6 Sep 2021, 22:27 PM
#73
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 79

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Sep 2021, 11:34 AMvgfgff



According to your playercard. You only experienced only 9 game with soviet.
I suggest you to try AT OVERWATCH by yourself. in my experience It totally waste of ammo it misses a lot when enemy tank are on move.and you can't continue tracking enemy tank without lose your unit.

Don't bother trying to arguing with ullu, he's a axis fanboy, dime-a-dozen on this and the steam forums as well as the game itself.
6 Sep 2021, 23:08 PM
#74
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1181 | Subs: 1

I really don't see an issue with this ability, as long as axis winrates are so stupidly high in teamgames. The reason allies have to rely on stupid abilities like this is because of the underdog position they find themselves in lategame (except Brits).

Besides, I would look into nerfing zeroing artillery and the Ostheer one that targets all defensive points if I am going to nerf ATO, since they all work off similar concepts. Assuming of course the reason to nerf such abilities is because they are uncounterable beyond moving out of an area, instead of because someone lost their heavy tonk to it.
6 Sep 2021, 23:08 PM
#75
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 312



and by this standard you also regard Sturmtiger to be balanced?


one is a tank that fires from the FoW, does instant, almost unavoidable damage that you cant see coming, the other is AoE which can be seen on the map and mitigated by not fucking overextending and driving in reverse.
7 Sep 2021, 04:53 AM
#76
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177



one is a tank that fires from the FoW, does instant, almost unavoidable damage that you cant see coming, the other is AoE which can be seen on the map and mitigated by not fucking overextending and driving in reverse.


Yes. In latest patch It seem broken. very large AOE + Its projectiles never miss.
However.
strumtiger is a tank not abilities.
Why someone pull this in to discussion in first place?
7 Sep 2021, 05:09 AM
#77
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 541


Axis players can't think rationally, or play well.They compensate for that by playing as the stronger factions, makes sense.


Compared to what, a quad ranked Soviet player?
MMX
7 Sep 2021, 06:14 AM
#78
avatar of MMX

Posts: 880 | Subs: 1

i wouldn't say the ability is op per se, just very strong under the right circumstances.

IMHO the problem isn't the damage output itself, but rather how it is distributed between multiple targets. the reason is that number of shells fired doesn't depend on how many tanks are within the target circle, which means if you have multiple tanks in the area, the damage dealt per unit is rather low. OTOH, a single crippled tank will be focused down very quickly, making the AT overwatch really strong in taking out isolated units.

the easiest way to strike a better balance between single and multi-target performance would probably be to tone down the base DPS a bit, but let the number of shells or ROF scale with the number of targets in the aiming circle (maybe by a factor of 0.5 to 0.75). that way the AT overwatch wouldn't be an automatic death sentence for, say, a lone tiger with engine crit and do more than just a tickle when more units are around.
7 Sep 2021, 06:54 AM
#79
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 365

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Sep 2021, 06:14 AMMMX
Good stuff

+1, my thoughts too. The ability needs a change not a straight nerf.
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