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What could be done about engineer vet

9 Jul 2021, 10:52 AM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper


The change that is actually needed is the minesweeper should actually take a weapon slot and so should the Vickers K

Why?

You are the only, single player in the whole community to complain about it week after week since it was nerfed already years ago.

Not a single other soul has trouble against it, hence its not being changed.
9 Jul 2021, 11:45 AM
#44
avatar of JohnSmith

Posts: 1273




Also keep in mind that Combat Engineers and Pioneers are not as combat efficient as other Engineers. It would be a fair trade to allow them to repair better.


USF - Rear Echelons can be given Bazookas for easy leveling. They also get 5th Squad Member at Vet 3 which also increases repair speed on top of the Vet 2 bonus

UKF - Royal Engineers - 5th Man with Upgrade which increases Repair Speed, as well as the Anvil Upgrade which also increases repair speed as well as having bonus repair speed with Vet. Also significantly easier to level due to Piats/Brens

OKW - Sturm Pioneers - Extremely Strong combat unit right at the start of the game, will destroy most units close range, Can get MineSweepers and Toggle them on/off so they dont lose combat potential as well as Panzershreck later on for easy leveling vs vehicles.

This leaves Soviets and Whermacht with by far the worst Engineers in the game in terms of combat potential and overall usefulness.

Having Shared Vet added is perfectly reasonable for these 2 factions. Especially if it comes at T3/T4 or even as a paid research option. This would make up for the lack of combat potential compared to other factions.


I agree with you. This is the best post that best argues for an engineer change in the future. Let's hope this is taken into consideration
9 Jul 2021, 12:09 PM
#45
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

December 19th community update (probably 2017)


September 2019 Balance Update:


About the sweeper slot from the recent Winter Balance Patch:


First: it seem the there were several stages of bringing OST and SOV engies repair speed inline with others by nerfing repair speed of Western Armies engie's.

Second: by removing sweeper as a weapon slot opened a vet opportunity for echelons and royalengies (weapon racks). Same with shrek for sturms, although it is a good combat unit as is. So now there is an unfair situation for pios and combat engies, because they don't have access to any weapons apart from pickups, if they get a sweeper. Pretty much why I think this tread is a thing.

Also it would be really appreciated if somebody broke down the full repair speeds of all engies in the game per entity.
9 Jul 2021, 12:24 PM
#46
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2

Also it would be really appreciated if somebody broke down the full repair speeds of all engies in the game per entity.

Ages ago I searched for them and made this post. Topic and context were different back then, as well as the sweeper repair boost was not implemented yet. So basically ignore the argumentative part.

But these were the numbers I found in the editor.

The OKW T2 repairatrons turned out to have a repair speed of 3 each, making it 9 in total.


In essence:
EFA pioneers much better when fully vetted and with sweeper. A rebuild squad in the late game however lacks behind in repair efficiency.
If they get shared vet, I'd rather consider reducing the repair rate vet bonus. This would also differentiate better between sweeper and flamer squad. (Off note, flamers could maybe get a mini RA buff to emphasize that but that would be another discussion). Currently, early sweepers are really only there for mine clearing. A flamer squad will do much better in repairing due to them vetting better to vet2, which outweights the sweeper bonus by far.
9 Jul 2021, 15:53 PM
#47
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3381 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper
One should simply not expect a 170MP+30 MU unnit to perform the same with 210MP+120MU unit...

No one's expecting them too. They will still be signigicantly worse in combat. Which is the entire fucking point

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jul 2021, 10:37 AMVipper

Getting more than one engineer as EFA is actually more viable strategy than using more than one as WFA.

Really it's just more necessary cause you have to build a tech building. And you have no other means for repairing (without doc)

OKW is the only one its truly less viable for, US and Brits it's a perfectly sound option to get another engineer. Mostly for AT purposes
9 Jul 2021, 17:14 PM
#48
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753


Ages ago I searched for them and made this post. Topic and context were different back then, as well as the sweeper repair boost was not implemented yet. So basically ignore the argumentative part.

But these were the numbers I found in the editor.

The OKW T2 repairatrons turned out to have a repair speed of 3 each, making it 9 in total.

I've made a table with multipliers (everything with flat bonuses converted to multipliers) base speed, flat bonuses, values with bonuses per model and full squad values with all bonuses added (2 variants for UKF).

Bonuses are:
USF - 5th man.
Royal Engineers - Heavy Sapper upgrade (+0.525)
OKW - Sweeper (+25%). Added option with "shady bonus" (Have no idea if it applies to flat base value or to accumulated value with bonuses)
CE/pios - Sweeper (+0.3)

If everything is correct, I'll publish values in separate thread, so people could actually google it, because such data is extremely hard to find

Edit: edited some values, edited table with what seems like correct values, some annotation for better reading and row with values per population.

9 Jul 2021, 18:35 PM
#49
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2837 | Subs: 2


I've made a table with multipliers (everything with flat bonuses converted to multipliers) and full squad values with bonuses added.

Bonuses are:
USF - 5th man.
Royal Engineers - Heavy Sapper upgrade
OKW - Sweeper. Added option with "shady bonus" (Have no idea if it applies to flat base value or to accumulated value with bonuses)
CE/pios - Sweeper

If everything is correct, I'll publish values in separate thread, so people could actually google it, because such data is extremely hard to find


I understood all these as flat values, at least the values check out with the veterancy guide if taken as absolute values. I don't know if this repair speed is further modified. Does it really take a minute for a single pio squad to repair a P4 back to full health? I really can't tell.

Assuming this is true: Your table needs more decimals, the rounding makes it look weird. And assuming that the values provide an absolute boost, I would annotate them as absolute values and not relative modifiers (otherwise your calcs will be incorrect).

Another metric that would be worth calculating is the repair rate per pop as some value for efficiency, but maybe that's only me.
9 Jul 2021, 20:18 PM
#50
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625


I've made a table with multipliers (everything with flat bonuses converted to multipliers) and full squad values with bonuses added.

Bonuses are:
USF - 5th man.
Royal Engineers - Heavy Sapper upgrade
OKW - Sweeper. Added option with "shady bonus" (Have no idea if it applies to flat base value or to accumulated value with bonuses)
CE/pios - Sweeper

If everything is correct, I'll publish values in separate thread, so people could actually google it, because such data is extremely hard to find



Ostheer has the breakthrough upgrade as well which helps pios a bit more in repairing too I believe
9 Jul 2021, 23:09 PM
#51
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753


I understood all these as flat values, at least the values check out with the veterancy guide if taken as absolute values. I don't know if this repair speed is further modified. Does it really take a minute for a single pio squad to repair a P4 back to full health? I really can't tell.

Assuming this is true: Your table needs more decimals, the rounding makes it look weird. And assuming that the values provide an absolute boost, I would annotate them as absolute values and not relative modifiers (otherwise your calcs will be incorrect).

Another metric that would be worth calculating is the repair rate per pop as some value for efficiency, but maybe that's only me.

So I read all the vets and bonuses carefully and edited the table. Took me some time to wrap my head around every bonus and some vets.

The "shady" bonus appears to be alright, because it makes a clean value. I added it after the 25% bonus were applied. Although you can go so far on "what appears to be correct".

Hopefully everything is correct now.
MMX
10 Jul 2021, 06:57 AM
#52
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


So I read all the vets and bonuses carefully and edited the table. Took me some time to wrap my head around every bonus and some vets.

The "shady" bonus appears to be alright, because it makes a clean value. I added it after the 25% bonus were applied. Although you can go so far on "what appears to be correct".

Hopefully everything is correct now.


really interesting stuff, great work! i've always wondered how fast/effective repairs are among the different factions, now i can finally look it up in a sleek table.

agree with hannibal that additional metrics, such as repair rate per pop or per mp investment would make a nice addition to the comparison.

one question though i had from glancing over the single entity and squad stats:

the squad repair rates always seem to be a multiple of the number of squad members minus one. does that mean that, for example in a squad of pios, only 3 out of four models are actively repairing or did i miss sth here?

EDIT: nvm, seems your updated post fixed this already
10 Jul 2021, 10:12 AM
#53
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

Eastern front sweeper engineers are the only utility units left in the game that is not meant to participate in combat, yet doesn't receive shared beterancy. I mean look, every officer (even tho some of them can take very good care of themselves), halftracks (even tho some of them can be upgraded to be very relevant in combat), the kubel and now even the M3 scout car receives shared veterancy. Western front enginners can grab AT weapons to quickly gain xp.
The sweeper pios and CEs are the only units left in the whole game that has trouble getting xp for themselves.

I still say their vet requirements should be increased a bit and grant them shared veterancy.
10 Jul 2021, 12:52 PM
#54
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 06:57 AMMMX


really interesting stuff, great work! i've always wondered how fast/effective repairs are among the different factions, now i can finally look it up in a sleek table.

thanks. But there are obviously more to this, since there are more bonuses (UKF), different upgrades and units (vehicle crew, assault engies, cons/penals, pgrens etc) that could be added. This table is mostly about the current topic, since it is about stock repair units.

Eastern front sweeper engineers are the only utility units left in the game that is not meant to participate in combat, yet doesn't receive shared beterancy. I mean look, every officer (even tho some of them can take very good care of themselves), halftracks (even tho some of them can be upgraded to be very relevant in combat), the kubel and now even the M3 scout car receives shared veterancy. Western front enginners can grab AT weapons to quickly gain xp.
The sweeper pios and CEs are the only units left in the whole game that has trouble getting xp for themselves.

I still say their vet requirements should be increased a bit and grant them shared veterancy.

Increased vet requirements means less vet for flamers and this hurts SOV more then OST.

There are a lot of questions that are needed to be addressed before making any conclusion. Although there is case that shows sweeper almost brings repair speed of CE and pios to the level of vet 0 sturms/Royal Engineers. But in teams of pop cap and price CE and pios are cheaper. Of course potential utility of sturms and royal engies reaches beyond repairing and sweeping, especially this applies to sturms (no cries for nerfs, just to be clear).
10 Jul 2021, 13:36 PM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


...
Increased vet requirements means less vet for flamers and this hurts SOV more then OST.
..

Why?
10 Jul 2021, 13:49 PM
#56
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 13:36 PMVipper

Why?

because you get your vet later, hence increased vet requirements. And it hurts SOV more. Sov flamer is better then OST because of merge. It is very common to not upgrade Pios with flamer, while it is very rare to see SOV without one. Please, no derailment.
10 Jul 2021, 16:09 PM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


because you get your vet later, hence increased vet requirements. And it hurts SOV more. Sov flamer is better then OST because of merge. It is very common to not upgrade Pios with flamer, while it is very rare to see SOV without one. Please, no derailment.

Nope that does not make sense, the effect would be the same.
10 Jul 2021, 18:33 PM
#58
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 753

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jul 2021, 16:09 PMVipper

Nope that does not make sense, the effect would be the same.

Please do not write things that are of topic of you are afraid of derailing a thread.

OST flamer upgrade competes for muni with healing, mg42s and g43s for grens, while flamer for SOV is decent damage boost for con openings + it competes only with mines early game. While higher vet does not provide a lot of combat bonuses for combat engies, it reduced downtime for t70 later a lot (+60% repair speed for engies with vet 2). Take a look at top players that rarely skip flamer upgrade with SOV and even go with 2 flamers vs particular builds, on the contrary it is ok for OST to skip flamer all together.
10 Jul 2021, 20:05 PM
#59
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


OST flamer upgrade competes for muni with healing, mg42s and g43s for grens, while flamer for SOV is decent damage boost for con openings + it competes only with mines early game. While higher vet does not provide a lot of combat bonuses for combat engies, it reduced downtime for t70 later a lot (+60% repair speed for engies with vet 2). Take a look at top players that rarely skip flamer upgrade with SOV and even go with 2 flamers vs particular builds, on the contrary it is ok for OST to skip flamer all together.

Yes CE vet easier and they will continue to vet easier if XP value of both unit is increased proportionately.

In sort increase XP value will have the same affect for both factions.
10 Jul 2021, 21:23 PM
#60
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 498

Increased vet requirements means less vet for flamers and this hurts SOV more then OST.

There are a lot of questions that are needed to be addressed before making any conclusion. Although there is case that shows sweeper almost brings repair speed of CE and pios to the level of vet 0 sturms/Royal Engineers. But in teams of pop cap and price CE and pios are cheaper. Of course potential utility of sturms and royal engies reaches beyond repairing and sweeping, especially this applies to sturms (no cries for nerfs, just to be clear).


It would be minor and only to compensate for the increased vet gain through shared vet.
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