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Late game performances of Volksgrenadiers and veterancy

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3 Apr 2021, 13:10 PM
#41
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


No, it means a unit that is not broken in context of the whole army does not need to be fixed and comparing it to a completely different unit with completely different upgrades at completely different timing with completely different army behind it couldn't be any less relevant to that first units performance in context of its own army and support it gets.


Or it means you dont even understand the context of the problem and can operate only with paper numbers. Its not about timing and army, its about the same core problem. That because of lack of proper mainline, you either have to secrifice map control or rely on numbers concentrated in one place in order to stay in the game. The only difference being that for Penals its an early game problem and for OKW its a late game problem.
But probably its too hard for someone who dont play the game, even during the ban :snfPeter:


In comparison to that, I can assure you with utmost certainty that people do know how to play vs volks for years, especially now that they have cost that matches their oppressiveness in early game against these very same cons you compare them to.

Because OP decided to compare them to Cons, since cons are by far weakest Allied mainline, even with Reserves. It has nothing to do with specifically cons. They are the only inf in the game, who dont shits on volks completly early game.
On the other hand both USF\UKF shits on volks during early and late game.
But again, your tunnel vision cant comprehend this. Or you want to claim that volks are oppresive against Rifles and Tommies aswell?
3 Apr 2021, 13:18 PM
#42
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

3 Apr 2021, 13:33 PM
#43
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

I am all for a late-game volksgren buff if soviet penals get access to doctrinal LMG upgrades


Why? it would be funny

No, because penals don't underperform
3 Apr 2021, 13:48 PM
#44
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8


No, because penals don't underperform

This must be why everyone competent stopped using them and they received improvements last patch.
3 Apr 2021, 13:52 PM
#45
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660


This must be why everyone competent stopped using them


No, it's because conscripts are even better and compete against infantry squads that cost much more while being dirty cheap and having an aggressive opening
3 Apr 2021, 14:40 PM
#46
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



No, it's because conscripts are even better and compete against infantry squads that cost much more while being dirty cheap and having an aggressive opening


Why are cons dirt cheap and grens and volks are not? Cons require more investment then both off them. And both axis mains have much better inf to support them and better support weapons stock then soviets have stock.
3 Apr 2021, 15:01 PM
#47
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



Why are cons dirt cheap and grens and volks are not? Cons require more investment then both off them.


Untrue
3 Apr 2021, 15:28 PM
#48
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



Untrue


No it is. Both volks and grens just require 60 muni nothing more to peak. Cons require additional fuel mp and 50 muni to peak and their peak comes later.
3 Apr 2021, 15:44 PM
#49
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660



No it is. Both volks and grens just require 60 muni nothing more to peak. Cons require additional fuel mp and 50 muni to peak and their peak comes later.

Volks grenades and upgrades are behind tech and truck
3 Apr 2021, 16:20 PM
#50
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



No it is. Both volks and grens just require 60 muni nothing more to peak. Cons require additional fuel mp and 50 muni to peak and their peak comes later.
this has been talked a lot of time, the total tech cost is still the same (if im not wrong okw is something like 5 more fuel) , allied faction simply have the option of side teching or rushing , axis faction pay in packages and can skip techs instead (usf can too tho)
3 Apr 2021, 16:29 PM
#51
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I am all for a late-game volksgren buff if soviet penals get access to doctrinal LMG upgrades


Why? it would be funny

Dude, Penal havelike +56% weapon acc at vet 3. It's no joke. They'd be even more broken compared to LMG para's.
3 Apr 2021, 16:31 PM
#52
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I have a proposal,
Let's make a special variant of the ppsh called, penal ppsh but instead of working like an smg it works more like assault rifles in the vein as STG44.
3 Apr 2021, 16:38 PM
#53
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8


Dude, Penal havelike +56% weapon acc at vet 3. It's no joke. They'd be even more broken compared to LMG para's.

And its less then regular vet+weapon upgrade.
3 Apr 2021, 16:43 PM
#54
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563



No it is. Both volks and grens just require 60 muni nothing more to peak. Cons require additional fuel mp and 50 muni to peak and their peak comes later.

You know just because OST and OKW don't have a choice of getting their weapons early that doesn't mean it shouldn't counted as investment.
It's only 15 fuel in fact most of the allies side tech(what you call investment) is super cheap.

The reason why you have to spend fuel to get snares is because non of the allied faction need to build tech to get mainlines.
OST/OKW can't get just spend 15 fuel and get LMG's/stgs or rifle nades/incendiary nades but USF and UKF can.

Just because allied factions have the choice and ost/okw don't doesn't mean that ost and okw for infantry.

And before you say you tech up also with those i'll say allied tech is less expensive. OST can't even reach the final tech level before every other faction can.


3 Apr 2021, 16:49 PM
#55
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563


And its less then regular vet+weapon upgrade.

what???
Rangers/Paras/Sections +25
Volks/Rifles/Mandos have +30
Grens/PG/Storms/Ass grens/Obers/Cons/Ass Guards/Shocks have +40

to my knowledge the only 2 units with +56 are
Penals and Fallschrimjaeger.
3 Apr 2021, 16:51 PM
#56
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

this has been talked a lot of time, the total tech cost is still the same (if im not wrong okw is something like 5 more fuel) , allied faction simply have the option of side teching or rushing , axis faction pay in packages and can skip techs instead (usf can too tho)


Yes total tech cost is very much the same. But there is tech in the soviet line up that only effects conscripts and nothing else. Making them the only unit you accurately calculate side tech cost into. No other unit has this like cons do. Then again maybe sections with their nades do but i could be wrong though.

People say cons are cheap because the have low reinforce costs, but forget they dropp a lot more models making it balanced.
Pip
3 Apr 2021, 16:54 PM
#57
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


SMG armed Assault Squad please, or Frontoviki Squad armed with SVT Rifles.


Frontoviki would be interesting (But I feel as though making them appealing when compared to Shocks might be hard), though they'd hardly be "Elite Infantry", and I'm not sure if they'd fit the required hole in the Soviet roster.

Wouldnt a Frontoviki squad armed with SVTs basically just be Penals?
Pip
3 Apr 2021, 16:56 PM
#58
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


Stop preaching this garbage in every thread about OKW inf perfomance. If its not 3v3 or 4v4 nubfest, OKW at best will have 2 maybe 3 obersoldaten squads, 9 pop-cap each. So 18 pop-cap for 2 squads, 27 for 3 squads.


What does your army look like that you can fit THREE Ober squads into it? (Or even Two, along with the "mandatory" Four Volk start?).

I usually struggle to have a single Obersoldaten squad wandering around, if i want to have enough of everything else I'd need.

I have a proposal,
Let's make a special variant of the ppsh called, penal ppsh but instead of working like an smg it works more like assault rifles in the vein as STG44.


If you wanted to give Penals an "Assault rifle" then I'd suggest that you instead give them ATVs, which were a select-fire variant of the SVT. They look practically identical visually, but the ATV can fire in a fully-automatic mode.

They weren't a hugely common rifle, but they'd be a better thematic fit than "Assault rifle" PPSH.


People say cons are cheap because the have low reinforce costs, but forget they dropp a lot more models making it balanced.


Early game, certainly. Later on conscripts have a really quite fantastic RA, especially considering their squad size. The Mobilise upgrade makes them even more efficient, to the point where it can be very hard to bleed a Soviet player in the later stages of the game.
3 Apr 2021, 17:15 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8


what???
Rangers/Paras/Sections +25
Volks/Rifles/Mandos have +30
Grens/PG/Storms/Ass grens/Obers/Cons/Ass Guards/Shocks have +40

to my knowledge the only 2 units with +56 are
Penals and Fallschrimjaeger.

You missed the point like B-4 misses the target.
3 Apr 2021, 17:48 PM
#60
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289


You know just because OST and OKW don't have a choice of getting their weapons early that doesn't mean it shouldn't counted as investment.
It's only 15 fuel in fact most of the allies side tech(what you call investment) is super cheap.

The reason why you have to spend fuel to get snares is because non of the allied faction need to build tech to get mainlines.
OST/OKW can't get just spend 15 fuel and get LMG's/stgs or rifle nades/incendiary nades but USF and UKF can.

Just because allied factions have the choice and ost/okw don't doesn't mean that ost and okw for infantry.

And before you say you tech up also with those i'll say allied tech is less expensive. OST can't even reach the final tech level before every other faction can.




Its hard to caculate the right amount of cost from an entiere tier to the unlocks of lmg or snare since not every unit in the tier is as strong/valuable as the other. A lot of people believe no tech of any kind should ne added because of this. To my knowlidge cons are the only unit to wich it only effects them, making it easier to do the math.
And people need to stop with the cheap cons (wich they arent) beat more expensive voljs/grens and look at the bigger picture instead of those units in a vacuum.

Its true allies and okw dont need to tech to build main lines. But allies dont have units as strong as pgrens obers stock to back them up nor mg's as early or powerfull depending on the faction.
Ost has the earliest and strong lv fase as well punishing not teching at nades or zooks potentialy.

Ost fields their medium before soviets get their first t34. So them reaching their final tech with even better units later is more a luxery problem then anything else.
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