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Soviet tech change suggestion

Pip
13 Jan 2021, 20:35 PM
#41
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557



The problem is that i don't think that is EVER gonna happen at all. You can suggest things that are more likely to happen than better solutions that are impossible to implement.


Personally I still think a guards variant (With button and PTRS) would be preferable to Penals with PTRS and Satchels... But the suggestion you've made in your OP is honestly the best rework to Penals' AT capabilities i've seen so far. Some tweaks perhaps needed, but it's definitely an improvement.
13 Jan 2021, 20:50 PM
#42
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2021, 20:35 PMPip


Personally I still think a guards variant (With button and PTRS) would be preferable to Penals with PTRS and Satchels...

Which it probably should be anyway, so I think that's okay. Guards are more expensive, arrive a little later, etc.

But elchinos ptrs penals and guards are also different enough that there's not too much overlap. Guards are more versatile. Their AT is less potent on its own, but button+ something else is great. Especially button + AT satchel (very satisfying)
Pip
13 Jan 2021, 22:44 PM
#43
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557


Which it probably should be anyway, so I think that's okay. Guards are more expensive, arrive a little later, etc.

But elchinos ptrs penals and guards are also different enough that there's not too much overlap. Guards are more versatile. Their AT is less potent on its own, but button+ something else is great. Especially button + AT satchel (very satisfying)


Yes, but what I'm saying is that I'd prefer if (Some variant of) Guards were available nondoctrinally for Soviet to use as their AT option.
14 Jan 2021, 00:00 AM
#44
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

One could rebalance Penals by reducing their cost from 280mp to 270mp but compensating with replacing 4 SVTs with Conscript mosin nagants.

How about 3 SVTs and 3 Mosins? Penals still take a long time to get on to the field, would probably be better to at least let them keep half their SVTs.
14 Jan 2021, 01:36 AM
#45
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 856 | Subs: 6

Yes Soviets bad tier structure, absence of non-doc good tanks/infantry and over reliance on the T-70/Quad/T-34/ and Katyusha for cheesy anti-inf power is really not fun. I've been working on an "asymmetry" mod to shake things up for fun.

It's inherently flawed tier system that can never be balanced: Penals and M3 need to be mediocre to compensate for the fact they arrive at the start of the game. But since Tier 1 doesn't have access to support weapons, it is an extremely high risk/low reward option. How do you balance mediocre units on a high risk/low reward tier without making them OP? You can't really. Lowering the cost of teching lowers the risk element, but I think having structures cost only 80 manpower is inelegant and feels contrived. (just like a 12 second build time) 4 Conscript models for an entire building?

Additionally, Soviets are far too limited in viable commanders because they have no advanced tanks in Tier 4 like Panther/Comet. So you only see Commanders with call in heavies or T-34/85 and KV-1. A non doc KV-1 (nerfed if needbe) would open up a lot of other non-meta call-in tank commanders.

In my WIP mod I changed the tier system so that it's linear and the Weapon Support Centre is the new Tier 1 and Special Rifle Command is the new Tier 2 which means M3 and Penals can get buffed without them being obnoxious because they arrive later. (This was actually someone elses idea on the forums that I saw)
14 Jan 2021, 04:32 AM
#46
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 130

Personally anything that makes it easier to back tech as the Soviets would help them a lot imo. At least in terms of Penals.

I would love to just see T1 and T2 get a cost reduction once T4 is built. Something like 80 Manpower and 5 Fuel would make it a lot easier to backtech late game when you really really need to get them.

It's kind of similar to the OKW changes that made it cheaper to get Medics late game (different ways to go about it but same intention). Personally I would say ZiS and the other support weapons are much more important to have late game than medics are. Yet atm T1 has this massive cost to back tech for them.
14 Jan 2021, 11:35 AM
#47
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83


Very well said. I don't think Katy/T34/T70/Quad are cheesy, except for live T70 their killing power is not extreme and all of these units except for katy require heavy micro and good positioning to be effective, but otherwise I agree with everything.
Pip
14 Jan 2021, 11:45 AM
#48
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557

Yes Soviets bad tier structure, absence of non-doc good tanks/infantry and over reliance on the T-70/Quad/T-34/ and Katyusha for cheesy anti-inf power is really not fun. I've been working on an "asymmetry" mod to shake things up for fun.

It's inherently flawed tier system that can never be balanced: Penals and M3 need to be mediocre to compensate for the fact they arrive at the start of the game. But since Tier 1 doesn't have access to support weapons, it is an extremely high risk/low reward option. How do you balance mediocre units on a high risk/low reward tier without making them OP? You can't really. Lowering the cost of teching lowers the risk element, but I think having structures cost only 80 manpower is inelegant and feels contrived. (just like a 12 second build time) 4 Conscript models for an entire building?

Additionally, Soviets are far too limited in viable commanders because they have no advanced tanks in Tier 4 like Panther/Comet. So you only see Commanders with call in heavies or T-34/85 and KV-1. A non doc KV-1 (nerfed if needbe) would open up a lot of other non-meta call-in tank commanders.

In my WIP mod I changed the tier system so that it's linear and the Weapon Support Centre is the new Tier 1 and Special Rifle Command is the new Tier 2 which means M3 and Penals can get buffed without them being obnoxious because they arrive later. (This was actually someone elses idea on the forums that I saw)


It's not just that they come early is the problem, it's that they come early and at full power (Other than veterancy bonuses), which means that they're difficult to get into a spot where they're not either relatively useless, or too strong at whatever timing they arrive at.

To properly balance Penals I think you really do need to look at having them enter the field being at a slightly higher price than Conscripts and Conscript Power, and being made to upgrade them to unlock their full strength. This has been suggested before when people talk about making them "Like Panzerfusiliers". Lelic are really against the concept of "Nondoctrinal weapon upgrades" for Soviet infantry though.

I still think they, as what really does amount to a "mainline-ish" infantry unit, should come from Tier 0, too.

As a comparison (Though it's not quite the same) Look at Obers. They used to come onto the field with the Flugabwehrkanone Truck, and immediately be able to upgrade to their LMG to make them "Full power". They weren't terribly viable at that point, as they simply came too late.
They were then changed to come with the significantly cheaper FlakTruck, and their upgrade was gated behind Panzer Authorisation. This made them more viable, as they could enter the field at a much better timing, while not being able to totally overpower allied infantry. I still think Obers have issues, but this change helped to improve their viability.
14 Jan 2021, 13:22 PM
#49
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2527 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2021, 11:45 AMPip


It's not just that they come early is the problem, it's that they come early and at full power (Other than veterancy bonuses), which means that they're difficult to get into a spot where they're not either relatively useless, or too strong at whatever timing they arrive at.

To properly balance Penals I think you really do need to look at having them enter the field being at a slightly higher price than Conscripts and Conscript Power, and being made to upgrade them to unlock their full strength. This has been suggested before when people talk about making them "Like Panzerfusiliers". Lelic are really against the concept of "Nondoctrinal weapon upgrades" for Soviet infantry though.

I still think they, as what really does amount to a "mainline-ish" infantry unit, should come from Tier 0, too.

I doubt though that this will really solve the T1 issue of Soviets. The main problem in my eyes is that T1 is a cheesy building, and going for it means you neglect the "standard" play style of support weapons. And Since ATGs, MGs and mortars are needed in this game, this in turn means Penals need to fill the gaps for everything by either replacing it or making up for it.

I assume that turning down the early power of Penals would just hit T1 even harder, since it now loses everything it has going for it. When should be upgrade be unlocked? Instantly? I assume most would then go for it anyway. At T3? How do T1 builds then deal with earlier upgrades of Axis factions?

Don't get me wrong, I think weapon upgrades for Penals can be part of a redesign, but the issues lie elsewhere.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2021, 11:45 AMPip

As a comparison (Though it's not quite the same) Look at Obers. They used to come onto the field with the Flugabwehrkanone Truck, and immediately be able to upgrade to their LMG to make them "Full power". They weren't terribly viable at that point, as they simply came too late.
They were then changed to come with the significantly cheaper FlakTruck, and their upgrade was gated behind Panzer Authorisation. This made them more viable, as they could enter the field at a much better timing, while not being able to totally overpower allied infantry. I still think Obers have issues, but this change helped to improve their viability.

No one really builds Obersoldaten at the moment unless you can upgrade them. If it weren't for the IR StGs and the concept that all weapon upgrades should cost ammo, they could just come at a higher price with MG34s already unlocked. For the current meta, it would make no real difference. And in the most recent changes they actually go back to the 'old' design, they just come slightly earlier.
Obers are a very different topic though. They are elite AI squads that are can be backed up by support weapons and are supposed to come at a time when Allied infantry is already vetted. There is no need to balance them for all phases of the game, since they join only for the mid game onwards anyway. Penals though need to bridge the whole gap.
Pip
14 Jan 2021, 13:39 PM
#50
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557


I doubt though that this will really solve the T1 issue of Soviets. The main problem in my eyes is that T1 is a cheesy building, and going for it means you neglect the "standard" play style of support weapons. And Since ATGs, MGs and mortars are needed in this game, this in turn means Penals need to fill the gaps for everything by either replacing it or making up for it.

I assume that turning down the early power of Penals would just hit T1 even harder, since it now loses everything it has going for it. When should be upgrade be unlocked? Instantly? I assume most would then go for it anyway. At T3? How do T1 builds then deal with earlier upgrades of Axis factions?

Don't get me wrong, I think weapon upgrades for Penals can be part of a redesign, but the issues lie elsewhere.


No one really builds Obersoldaten at the moment unless you can upgrade them. If it weren't for the IR StGs and the concept that all weapon upgrades should cost ammo, they could just come at a higher price with MG34s already unlocked. For the current meta, it would make no real difference. And in the most recent changes they actually go back to the 'old' design, they just come slightly earlier.
Obers are a very different topic though. They are elite AI squads that are can be backed up by support weapons and are supposed to come at a time when Allied infantry is already vetted. There is no need to balance them for all phases of the game, since they join only for the mid game onwards anyway. Penals though need to bridge the whole gap.


Soviets as a whole just suffer from being a poorly designed faction, it seems. The tech structure needs reworking at bare minimum.

I agree that my post was somewhat of an oversimplification.
14 Jan 2021, 17:31 PM
#51
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1557



3- Did you check the list of values i put for every faction to push out their light vehicles out? This is without counting the cost of the vehicle itself.
Nerf withstanding, why should be any different from Axis dealing out with AAHT/Stuart/AEC.


That's not what I meant. I mean the game plan of soviet and ostruppen ost are similar,
1.get better map control wit more(but weaker) filed presence.
2.hold that ground
3.Pop out LV's
4.hold out till heavier stuff

ostruppen ost does it well and it's difficult to deal with. the T70 is a lot more agile and more dangerous than the other allied LV's. Stuart's not as fast or as strong, AEC is not gonna threaten ost infantry (hell even Puma's AI is better than the AEC's), AAHT is slow and more of a mobile supression platform. Like answer me this your a much better player, what do you think is the best allied LV in the game???
It's not the deal out the LV is problem is how much damage the LV can do while it's being dealt with.

14 Jan 2021, 20:39 PM
#52
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



That's not what I meant. I mean the game plan of soviet and ostruppen ost are similar,
1.get better map control wit more(but weaker) filed presence.
2.hold that ground
3.Pop out LV's
4.hold out till heavier stuff

ostruppen ost does it well and it's difficult to deal with. the T70 is a lot more agile and more dangerous than the other allied LV's. Stuart's not as fast or as strong, AEC is not gonna threaten ost infantry (hell even Puma's AI is better than the AEC's), AAHT is slow and more of a mobile supression platform. Like answer me this your a much better player, what do you think is the best allied LV in the game???
It's not the deal out the LV is problem is how much damage the LV can do while it's being dealt with.



Which is why i specifically wrote: "Nerf as much as needed the T70" and at some point i think i answered to someone to make it a P2 clone.

The only reason T3 is delayed so much is because how strong the T70 is (even with the current nerfs on preview).
14 Jan 2021, 20:43 PM
#53
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Yes Soviets bad tier structure, absence of non-doc good tanks/infantry and over reliance on the T-70/Quad/T-34/ and Katyusha for cheesy anti-inf power is really not fun. I've been working on an "asymmetry" mod to shake things up for fun.

It's inherently flawed tier system that can never be balanced: Penals and M3 need to be mediocre to compensate for the fact they arrive at the start of the game. But since Tier 1 doesn't have access to support weapons, it is an extremely high risk/low reward option. How do you balance mediocre units on a high risk/low reward tier without making them OP? You can't really. Lowering the cost of teching lowers the risk element, but I think having structures cost only 80 manpower is inelegant and feels contrived. (just like a 12 second build time) 4 Conscript models for an entire building?

Additionally, Soviets are far too limited in viable commanders because they have no advanced tanks in Tier 4 like Panther/Comet. So you only see Commanders with call in heavies or T-34/85 and KV-1. A non doc KV-1 (nerfed if needbe) would open up a lot of other non-meta call-in tank commanders.

In my WIP mod I changed the tier system so that it's linear and the Weapon Support Centre is the new Tier 1 and Special Rifle Command is the new Tier 2 which means M3 and Penals can get buffed without them being obnoxious because they arrive later. (This was actually someone elses idea on the forums that I saw)


I guess you mean this post i made on December:

Given the current state of the game and from my awesome 5 minute thought full rework redesign plan which has no flaws whatsoever or any chance of backfiring this is what i came with. /s

---Support weapon company (T2) becomes T1. No further changes.

---Special Rifle comp (T1) becomes T2. Cut cost by half.
-New T2 requires T1 and it becomes an optional tier. T3 requires T1 and T4 requires T3.
-Penals becomes analog to PG once again (increase cost and buff). Maybe balance them around been a 5 man squad and not sure how historically correct could be to give them zooks cause that would solve the gap of Soviets having a real AT infantry unit to deal with heavy TDs in team games now that we plan on nerfing ram (and probable in the future IL2).
-Sniper can be given utility buffs.
-M3 can see further buffs now that it arrives at a later timing.


I discard it cause i didn't believe it would be applied/approved.
14 Jan 2021, 20:58 PM
#54
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890



I really like a lot of your changes and appreciate the work you put into it. I do like the T1/T2 and the T3 changes.

What I'm missing is a somehow bolder T4 rework. The T34/76 timing is really messed up. Comes way too late, especially if you build a M5/T70/SU-76 before. Especially building a T70 feels mandatory. Getting a T34 after PZIV as a result is somehow akward since PZIV beats it in AI/AT and armor. Maybe lower T4 fuel cost and take your proposal of a mandatory Mobilize Reserves to put Katiusha and SU-85 behind it in addition to doctrinal tanks. You would have your very own timeframe for T34 then that could be balanced.

I would like to have the tactical decision to rush a T34 if I do thing I can hold my territory just long enough without going for that T70. More diverse T3 into T4 builds would be nice. Atm it isn't very realistic to pull that off.

14 Jan 2021, 22:07 PM
#55
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



I really like a lot of your changes and appreciate the work you put into it. I do like the T1/T2 and the T3 changes.

What I'm missing is a somehow bolder T4 rework. The T34/76 timing is really messed up. Comes way too late, especially if you build a M5/T70/SU-76 before. Especially building a T70 feels mandatory. Getting a T34 after PZIV as a result is somehow akward since PZIV beats it in AI/AT and armor. Maybe lower T4 fuel cost and take your proposal of a mandatory Mobilize Reserves to put Katiusha and SU-85 behind it in addition to doctrinal tanks. You would have your very own timeframe for T34 then that could be balanced.

I would like to have the tactical decision to rush a T34 if I do thing I can hold my territory just long enough without going for that T70. More diverse T3 into T4 builds would be nice. Atm it isn't very realistic to pull that off.



It could be tried but it's secondary to what i'm aiming for at first. I tried to avoid separating T4 units unlocks cause that would require more work/text explanation to be done. Specially cause i don't consider the power level of all 3 units requiring any separation atm.

Moving cost from T4 to mobilize can be done easily, specially fuel.
14 Jan 2021, 22:32 PM
#56
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3154 | Subs: 7

The T34/76 timing is really messed up. Comes way too late, especially if you build a M5/T70/SU-76 before. [...] Getting a T34 after PZIV as a result is somehow akward since PZIV beats it in AI/AT and armor.


The T-34/76's strength is not initial timing, but cost effectiveness. You can get the second one before or at the same time as Ostheer can get their second P4, you can throw one away and trade well against any vehicle bigger than a StuG. You can get about 3 for 2 P4s. After big tank engagements with multiple losses for both sides, it's the Soviets who can replace their armor the fastest. It's easier to achieve critical mass with it than with any other vehicle. And with ZiS guns as support, it does about as well at fighting infantry and tanks as a P4 for a much lower price.

That is what makes the T-34/76 unique, and it generally synergises really well with Soviets' attrition based late game strength. Messing around with the timings would likely cause a snowball effect (fast first tank leads to fast second tank, etc.) which would probably then lead to nerfs (like a higher unit cost) and turn it into just another medium tank.
14 Jan 2021, 23:59 PM
#57
avatar of Dharx

Posts: 83



After big tank engagements with multiple losses for both sides, it's the Soviets who can replace their armor the fastest.


And Axis who don't have to replace any. T34 is not a late game unit, it's a 1v1 flanking midgame unit that arrives too late.
15 Jan 2021, 04:16 AM
#58
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 130


And with ZiS guns as support, it does about as well at fighting infantry and tanks as a P4 for a much lower price.


So this may be a bit off topic but this right here is one of the biggest issues with the Soviets and their T1 builds. The ZiS gun is super important to the Soviet late game due to the weakness of the T34 against other mediums. However, the backtech cost for Penals to get it adds a lot onto the already difficult tech path the Soviets have to deal with. I really hope something is done with that because it seems like a relatively simple thing that could be fixed but would go a long way in helping T1 builds be more viable.
15 Jan 2021, 06:25 AM
#59
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



It could be tried but it's secondary to what i'm aiming for at first. I tried to avoid separating T4 units unlocks cause that would require more work/text explanation to be done. Specially cause i don't consider the power level of all 3 units requiring any separation atm.

Moving cost from T4 to mobilize can be done easily, specially fuel.


i have a suggestion for this...
1. unlock 7 man at T3 but nerf T-70 a bit more to compensate 20% veterancy and -2 reinforce cost moved to T4
2. T4 to 140mp 60fuel... unlocks T-34 and 20% vet -2 reinforce cost
2. rename mobilize to tank authorization... 140mp 40 fuel unlocks SU-85 katy and doctrinal units...
15 Jan 2021, 06:41 AM
#60
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 856 | Subs: 6

The problem with using a community balance team as opposed to Relic designers to make balance changes is they probably don't have the authority to do big sweeping reworks to faction design which is needed to fix Soviets. For example, it would make way more sense to swap out Guards and Penals so that Penals are doctrinal and Guards are non Doctrinal. Then Guards would overlap with Conscripts much less and Penals can be made way more quirky since they'd be a doctrinal call-in. But that won't happen, there also might not be the right voice lines for call-ins/unlocks and whatnot. Non doctrinal Penals are basically impossible to make interesting, because either they are cheaper so they overlap with Cons more, or they are made more elite so they overlap with Guards or Shocks. So then option C is to make them cheesy and have obnoxious stuff for a pretty base-line squad.
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