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russian armor

why not nerf pathfinder?

8 Dec 2020, 09:15 AM
#41
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Dec 2020, 08:57 AMVipper

And that bring as back to the original question. In your opinion do Pathfinder have a low XP value?


For their cost, yes. For their strength, no. 290mp for a 4 man unit that has non complementary weapon stats (sniper+close range carbine), a full 1.0 RA value and relatively poor offensive vet- oh and expensive reinforce, 33mp per model wasn't it?
If you double BAR them, they do get stronger but its still non complementary weapons as BAR is at its best in close-mid range.

Not saying they are worse than pios but pios only cost 200mp.


Pathfinders are primarily taken for recon, not combat though they do have to chip in. If we have to increase the vet requirements for them, I'd also suggest giving them a sizeable reduction in RA but removing a weapon slot. This means they will be more durable when they hit the field, but wont scale as well through combat capability.
8 Dec 2020, 09:45 AM
#42
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



For their cost, yes. For their strength, no. 290mp for a 4 man unit that has non complementary weapon stats (sniper+close range carbine), a full 1.0 RA value and relatively poor offensive vet- oh and expensive reinforce, 33mp per model wasn't it?
If you double BAR them, they do get stronger but its still non complementary weapons as BAR is at its best in close-mid range.

Not saying they are worse than pios but pios only cost 200mp.


Pathfinders are primarily taken for recon, not combat though they do have to chip in. If we have to increase the vet requirements for them, I'd also suggest giving them a sizeable reduction in RA but removing a weapon slot. This means they will be more durable when they hit the field, but wont scale as well through combat capability.

Glad to see that we agree about the XP value. Their DPS is enough to make vet very fast (more so for IR Pathfinders).

Pathfinder (and JLI) should simply be of lower power level and act as support unit. Lower pop(more of problem in jli) lower cost and be there for the utility and not damage.
9 Dec 2020, 14:47 PM
#43
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Dec 2020, 09:45 AMVipper

Glad to see that we agree about the XP value. Their DPS is enough to make vet very fast (more so for IR Pathfinders).


We do not agree. I feel their xp is fine given their current stock combat capability to cost ratio.

For a dedicated combat infantry squad of ~290mp like penals, the exp value would be way too low. But for the combat capability of the pathfinders given their cost, I'm ok with it.
9 Dec 2020, 15:10 PM
#44
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



We do not agree. I feel their xp is fine given their current stock combat capability to cost ratio.

For a dedicated combat infantry squad of ~290mp like penals, the exp value would be way too low. But for the combat capability of the pathfinders given their cost, I'm ok with it.

Then I have to point out:
ΧP value of unit was original tied to the cost of unit and not its DPS

In game the Pathfinder gain veterancy way faster the pioneer and Penals and get access to powerful vet bonuses. Probably the unit gain veterancy faster than any other unit.

I also have to point out that apart from the combat performance both Pathfinders also have bring utility.

And what is your opinion about I&R Pathfinder that come with 3 paras carbine and one scoped. Because they have the same XP value?
9 Dec 2020, 18:07 PM
#45
avatar of RoastinGhost

Posts: 416 | Subs: 1

Putting BARs on Pathfinders is a terrible idea. They already are half full of slot items which have the opposite DPS curve of a BAR. Besides, it's only a 50% DPS increase for a pathfinder, compared to a 100% increase on a rifleman. They should pick up an LMG whenever they can, though.

I think both versions of the squad need a little work, but not because they're too powerful. They're just a little awkward now, with a high cost and ill-matching weapons. The I&R Pathfinder is better than its standard counterpart, and is in a better doctrine.

Sidenote: does anyone know if the Pathfinder model is parachute-ready?
9 Dec 2020, 18:40 PM
#46
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2020, 15:10 PMVipper

Then I have to point out:
ΧP value of unit was original tied to the cost of unit and not its DPS

In game the Pathfinder gain veterancy way faster the pioneer and Penals and get access to powerful vet bonuses. Probably the unit gain veterancy faster than any other unit.

I also have to point out that apart from the combat performance both Pathfinders also have bring utility.

And what is your opinion about I&R Pathfinder that come with 3 paras carbine and one scoped. Because they have the same XP value?


How the game was balanced 5 years ago is very different from how it is today. Originally reinforce cost was tied directly to the purchase cost of the unit. That model was dropped for the better. I see no reason why veterency needs to be tied only to cost. You can point out this outdated system all you like though, thats your right.


Not that its saying much but pathfinders do have better vet than pioneers and their vet is "powerful" in terms of utility but weak in terms of combat stats. It certainly doesn't help that their stock capabilities aren't that good given their cost. Pioneers aren't an easy unit to vet given their specific weapon characteristics, and penals just have high(though justified) vet requirements. I dont think there's a problem with them vetting faster than these two examples.


I&R pathfinders are a superior unit objectively to standard pathfinders. Their cost and vet could both be slightly increased.
Standard Pathfinder vet doesn't really need to be touched.
9 Dec 2020, 18:52 PM
#47
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



How the game was balanced 5 years ago is very different from how it is today. Originally reinforce cost was tied directly to the purchase cost of the unit. That model was dropped for the better. I see no reason why veterency needs to be tied only to cost. You can point out this outdated system all you like though, thats your right.


Not that its saying much but pathfinders do have better vet than pioneers and their vet is "powerful" in terms of utility but weak in terms of combat stats. It certainly doesn't help that their stock capabilities aren't that good given their cost. Pioneers aren't an easy unit to vet given their specific weapon characteristics, and penals just have high(though justified) vet requirements. I dont think there's a problem with them vetting faster than these two examples.


I&R pathfinders are a superior unit objectively to standard pathfinders. Their cost and vet could both be slightly increased.
Standard Pathfinder vet doesn't really need to be touched.

I would argue they vet faster than the majority of units not just those two.
9 Dec 2020, 20:41 PM
#48
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2020, 15:10 PMVipper

Then I have to point out:
ΧP value of unit was original tied to the cost of unit and not its DPS

That is old design and it doesn't apply for 6 years now, since this is when first exceptions started appearing. It applied exclusively to vanila eastern front.
All of the cost changes without vet req changes over the years also prove that this is not only a weak argument, its laughable one.

In game the Pathfinder gain veterancy way faster the pioneer and Penals and get access to powerful vet bonuses. Probably the unit gain veterancy faster than any other unit.

Powerful vet bonuses to weak base stats result in ok vetted stats, not op unit.

I also have to point out that apart from the combat performance both Pathfinders also have bring utility.

Neither extra sight nor anti bunker ability helps win engagements.

And what is your opinion about I&R Pathfinder that come with 3 paras carbine and one scoped. Because they have the same XP value?

What's wrong with them now?
The same reasoning applies here.
They are not JLI, they are not independent infantry capable of fighting and beating opposing mainlines.
9 Dec 2020, 20:49 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



If you want to take part in this debate just start by responding to simple question, in your opinion do Pathfinder and I&R Pathfinder gain veterancy at the same rate as other units or faster/slower?
Pip
9 Dec 2020, 20:52 PM
#50
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


That is old design and it doesn't apply for 6 years now, since this is when first exceptions started appearing. It applied exclusively to vanila eastern front.
All of the cost changes without vet req changes over the years also prove that this is not only a weak argument, its laughable one.


Powerful vet bonuses to weak base stats result in ok vetted stats, not op unit.


Neither extra sight nor anti bunker ability helps win engagements.


What's wrong with them now?
The same reasoning applies here.
They are not JLI, they are not independent infantry capable of fighting and beating opposing mainlines.


Extra sight absolutely helps win engagements, it allows you to far more easily circumvent prepared positions, particularly MGs. It's not a direct combat stat, but it's still quite good in terms of helping to win engagements. If you're talking about I&R pathfinder's artillery callin when you're talking about "Anti-bunker ability" I'm not entirely certain how that can't be used to help win engagements, either. It allows you to displace/destroy team weapons... and displace infantry in cover as well.
9 Dec 2020, 20:55 PM
#51
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2020, 20:49 PMVipper

If you want to take part in this debate just start by responding to simple question, in your opinion do Pathfinder and I&R Pathfinder gain veterancy at the same rate as other units or faster/slower?

In my opinion they get veterancy as fast as the utility unit with bad DPS in contrast to mainline it supports should.
9 Dec 2020, 21:19 PM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


In my opinion they get veterancy as fast as the utility unit with bad DPS in contrast to mainline it supports should.

Pls be specific and name some of the units that in your opinion gain veterancy as fast regardless of role during the progress of the game.
10 Dec 2020, 12:15 PM
#53
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1



For their cost, yes. For their strength, no. 290mp for a 4 man unit that has non complementary weapon stats (sniper+close range carbine), a full 1.0 RA value and relatively poor offensive vet- oh and expensive reinforce, 33mp per model wasn't it?
If you double BAR them, they do get stronger but its still non complementary weapons as BAR is at its best in close-mid range.

Not saying they are worse than pios but pios only cost 200mp.


Pathfinders are primarily taken for recon, not combat though they do have to chip in. If we have to increase the vet requirements for them, I'd also suggest giving them a sizeable reduction in RA but removing a weapon slot. This means they will be more durable when they hit the field, but wont scale as well through combat capability.


Just to clear numbers up, they currently reinforce for 30mp (same as Grens), it used to be 37 MP!
Their main issue is the 290mp upfront you pay when you could just build another Riflemen squad. Airborne Pathfinders can't brawl like the IRs one to cost as much IMO. Lowering their call-in cost will help them a whole lot to be more usable.
10 Dec 2020, 12:17 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Dec 2020, 21:19 PMVipper

Pls be specific and name some of the units that in your opinion gain veterancy as fast regardless of role during the progress of the game.

Its the opposite.

They have greatly inflated cost, you pay for them much more then they are worth.
This is why no one ever gets them anymore after a meme dual bar period ended.
10 Dec 2020, 12:20 PM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 12:17 PMKatitof

Its the opposite.

The opposite of what? I have simply asked for unit that in you opinion vet as fast as Pathfinder

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Dec 2020, 12:17 PMKatitof

They have greatly inflated cost, you pay for them much more then they are worth.
This is why no one ever gets them anymore after a meme dual bar period ended.

Or maybe it has to do with fact that everyone plays mechanized so they do not have access to them.
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