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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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30 Dec 2020, 14:49 PM
#1001
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:30 PMVipper

Oddly enough Penal are quite good at long range fight once vetted. Their vet 1 ability and accuracy buffs make the quite good at prolonged cover to cover fights.

~20 DPS spread across whole squad.
Grens alone have 13,5 of focus fire DPS and additional 10 from regular Kars.

Penal vet1 is not useless, but its also not outcome changing, instead of losing 16,6% DPS per model loss, they lose ~13%. It helps, but its not going to overpower anything.

Penals can fight at long range, but saying they are good at long range at vet compared to any other squad capable of long range fighting, including bar rifles is covering the truth at the very least.
30 Dec 2020, 14:58 PM
#1002
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 06:01 AMVipper

Su-76 will become easier to use, T2 has become easier to tech.

Soviet are not USF and Penal are not to Riflemen.

As I pointed out previously the problem lies with the idea that Soviet T1 build so be carried on the shoulder of Penals. Trying to turn soviet into USF once the built T1 simple will not work, it will either lead to Penal blobs or it will lead to T1 oblivion.

It is high time to accept that and simply change the design.


Even then the issue lies in that the SU76 has to directly compete with the T70 as the midgame for Soviets which it just doesn't. And it isn't because the Su76 is bad it's just that the Soviets need something like the T70 to push around LVs and Infantry at the same time (although costing 75 fuel isn't helping T1 when it tries to get T4).

Plus it still isn't easy to backtech for AT guns since nothing has been done to help with the stupidly expensive T4. The options Penals have for AT beyond PTRS just still doesn't exist and until something is done to make them getting AT not as expensive/punishing you aren't gonna see Penals be viable.
30 Dec 2020, 15:12 PM
#1003
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:49 PMKatitof

~20 DPS spread across whole squad.
Grens alone have 13,5 of focus fire DPS and additional 10 from regular Kars.

Penal vet1 is not useless, but its also not outcome changing, instead of losing 16,6% DPS per model loss, they lose ~13%. It helps, but its not going to overpower anything.

That is not how the ability "to last man" works.

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 14:49 PMKatitof

Penals can fight at long range, but saying they are good at long range at vet compared to any other squad capable of long range fighting, including bar rifles is covering the truth at the very least.

Feel free to provide evidence to back up your claim because Penal perform quite good vs long range infatry in cover to cover fights once vetted.

Until then we can agree to disagree.
30 Dec 2020, 15:14 PM
#1004
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Even then the issue lies in that the SU76 has to directly compete with the T70 as the midgame for Soviets which it just doesn't. And it isn't because the Su76 is bad it's just that the Soviets need something like the T70 to push around LVs and Infantry at the same time (although costing 75 fuel isn't helping T1 when it tries to get T4).

Plus it still isn't easy to backtech for AT guns since nothing has been done to help with the stupidly expensive T4. The options Penals have for AT beyond PTRS just still doesn't exist and until something is done to make them getting AT not as expensive/punishing you aren't gonna see Penals be viable.

Once more that is T1 design problem and Penal simply can not be to solution to everything.
30 Dec 2020, 15:28 PM
#1005
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:14 PMVipper

Once more that is T1 design problem and Penal simply can not be to solution to everything.

Well, M3 most certainly isn't going to be one and neither is sniper.
New units aren't being made, doctrinal units aren't going into stock, T2 isn't going to be reshuffled with T1 and penals are not becoming cons with different name.

That means we have to work with current penals.
30 Dec 2020, 15:45 PM
#1008
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 15:28 PMKatitof

Well, M3 most certainly isn't going to be one and neither is sniper.
New units aren't being made, doctrinal units aren't going into stock, T2 isn't going to be reshuffled with T1 and penals are not becoming cons with different name.

That means we have to work with current penals.


Exactly. Working in the confines of what T1 is gonna give Penals either need to become more efficient on their own or something needs to be done with giving them access to AT. Whether that is like reducing the cost of T2 if you build T1, shuffling some costs around (move some T4 cost to T2 so penal builds get a better timing), or whatever else.
The point that Vipper keeps missing is that massive overhauls aren't gonna happen and the smaller changes are all we have to work with. Do Penal in general have issues with their design? Sure but it's long past the point where that could be fixed. So we just have to work with the current state of Penals and in this state they need one of the two things I listed above if you want to make them viable picks.

30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PM
#1010
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Exactly. Working in the confines of what T1 is gonna give Penals either need to become more efficient on their own or something needs to be done with giving them access to AT. Whether that is like reducing the cost of T2 if you build T1, shuffling some costs around (move some T4 cost to T2 so penal builds get a better timing), or whatever else.
The point that Vipper keeps missing is that massive overhauls aren't gonna happen and the smaller changes are all we have to work with. Do Penal in general have issues with their design? Sure but it's long past the point where that could be fixed. So we just have to work with the current state of Penals and in this state they need one of the two things I listed above if you want to make them viable picks.


Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design.

That is why PF are designed to co exist with VG and not replace them.
30 Dec 2020, 16:22 PM
#1011
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PMVipper

Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design.

Literally no one expects them to work independently and spamming either alone is a sure way to lose the game - they were independent exclusively when they were op and, that clearly was not intended given how they no longer are.
It was always about paying for their own cost and scaling into late game for both and both sucked hard until they started getting mandatory changes. To not see that is to be in denial about state of these units.
30 Dec 2020, 16:30 PM
#1012
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:22 PMKatitof

Literally no one expects them to work independently and spamming either alone is a sure way to lose the game - they were independent exclusively when they were op and, that clearly was not intended given how they no longer are.
It was always about paying for their own cost and scaling into late game for both and both sucked hard until they started getting mandatory changes. To not see that is to be in denial about state of these units.

At least try to read what has been said before jumping in debate.


As I already stated that conscript squad with AT is stupidly expensive since you 390 manpower and 15 fuel (which is even worse if your also planning on paying for 75 fuel for the SU76). And if you go for more than 1 conscript then is there even really a point to go Penals?
If penals aren't allowed to be flexible and have a snare than give them more actual AT and the tools to better deal with vehicles.


FunPolice obviously expects them to be able to operate on their own, you can debate the issue with him and not me.
30 Dec 2020, 16:39 PM
#1013
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:18 PMVipper

Penal will never be fixed because having two mainline infatry in the same faction and expecting them to work independently is simply bad design.

That is why PF are designed to co exist with VG and not replace them.


Well then Penals fail at that job also because of what they offer compared to T2. Going just pure cons gives you snares, the possibility of an MG and AT gun, and late game scaling with 7 man.

T1 gives clown car which is only good for the early game, a sniper which is fine, and Penals which are strong early game but then fall off a cliff late game.

Making it easier to backtech to T2 after going penals would be a way to make it easier to incorporate Penals into standard openings. But no matter what Penals still just need more to be viable. Right now they just don't do enough compared to what you give up for them.
30 Dec 2020, 16:43 PM
#1014
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 658

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 21:32 PMKT610
Any thoughts on giving Penals access to Dp-28s? I would be more willing to take Penals over cons if they got some anti-infantry upgrades as an alternative to PTRS.


Personally I always felt that Penal Squads should be swapped with Guards (rebalanced of course) simply due to the fact that Penal Battalions didn't outnumber the red army and it kind of feels unrealistic seeing whole armies of Penal spam in games. From a thematic point it would make sense to swap them. It would also be easier to balance since you could gate DP-28/PTRS behind Tech/Upgrades to smooth out the curve a bit kind of like how Obers need tech to gain the MG-34.

Also this could fix PPSH being useless if Non Doctrinal Guards could get them and you could turn them into Assault Guards like the ones in the M5 Halftrack from the Lend Lease commander.
30 Dec 2020, 16:47 PM
#1015
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 16:22 PMKatitof

Literally no one expects them to work independently and spamming either alone is a sure way to lose the game - they were independent exclusively when they were op and, that clearly was not intended given how they no longer are.
It was always about paying for their own cost and scaling into late game for both and both sucked hard until they started getting mandatory changes. To not see that is to be in denial about state of these units.


Penals are expected to work on their own, and at the very least independently from T2. You can throw a Con into a Penal build but it does not fix the actual issue.
30 Dec 2020, 17:48 PM
#1016
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Penals are expected to work on their own, and at the very least independently from T2. You can throw a Con into a Penal build but it does not fix the actual issue.

That is in the context of PTRS or general penal performance?

Because in context of PTRS, I'd expect them to be as efficient as shreck pios, not shreck PFs/zook RETs, 3 PTRS is an improvement, but I wouldn't relay on just 70 muni upgrade to counter any med armor without support from 1 other AT source as well.
And in context of penal spam BO, you can get by for the early game with the punishment of inferior map control, but you pretty much always need to supplement them with doctrinal inf or baby ATG if you want to forego T2.
30 Dec 2020, 18:07 PM
#1017
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1




The Maxim should cost 240 MP, for a start. Its current 260 is unwarranted.

Unless there's something I'm overlooking.


No, the Maxim definitely should not be buffed. Everything has to be done to prevent Maxim spam from becoming a thing again. It's already pretty commonly used in 3v3/4v4 and is a strong strategy despite the individually poor performance of the Maxim. There are way too many lane maps like Whiteball Express, Redball Express etc. that just make it WAY too easy to lock down the entire map with MGs.
30 Dec 2020, 18:38 PM
#1018
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Well then Penals fail at that job also because of what they offer compared to T2. Going just pure cons gives you snares, the possibility of an MG and AT gun, and late game scaling with 7 man.

T1 gives clown car which is only good for the early game, a sniper which is fine, and Penals which are strong early game but then fall off a cliff late game.

Making it easier to backtech to T2 after going penals would be a way to make it easier to incorporate Penals into standard openings. But no matter what Penals still just need more to be viable. Right now they just don't do enough compared to what you give up for them.

And that is why this design issue and not performance issue.

But feel free to debate the issue of making only Penal troops a viable strategy with katitof who is against it.
30 Dec 2020, 18:50 PM
#1019
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



No, the Maxim definitely should not be buffed. Everything has to be done to prevent Maxim spam from becoming a thing again. It's already pretty commonly used in 3v3/4v4 and is a strong strategy despite the individually poor performance of the Maxim. There are way too many lane maps like Whiteball Express, Redball Express etc. that just make it WAY too easy to lock down the entire map with MGs.


So because its used with effect it is bad somehow? People please stop with the mds. All factors from the spam period have been nerfed hard. Now it will become usable for muni cost per use. It doesnt deserve the same mp price as the mg42.

So do we nerf the mg42/43 instead? They lock down an area even better for the same or less mp and less muni.
30 Dec 2020, 19:04 PM
#1020
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 270 | Subs: 1

Swap the SVT for AVTs and make penals into fallschirmjager clones :thumb:
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