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The maxim thread

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1 Nov 2020, 12:03 PM
#201
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:00 PMVipper

And I am telling again that the suggested number will probably make the Maxim more powerful than it was before it was nerfed.


how would a maxim with slightly less suppression than an mg42 or even a vickers be in any way shape or form OP?
1 Nov 2020, 12:07 PM
#202
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:03 PMgbem


how would a maxim with slightly less suppression than an mg42 or even a vickers be in any way shape or form OP?

If you played the game during maxim spam you would know. Try watching older games.
1 Nov 2020, 12:08 PM
#203
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:07 PMVipper

If you played the game during maxim spam you would know.


i did... the maxim at that era had higher suppression than it had now but that wasnt what made it broken.... it was its low cost of 240mp and its 1.5s setup time....
1 Nov 2020, 12:09 PM
#204
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:08 PMgbem


i did... the maxim at that era had higher suppression than it had now but that wasnt what made it broken.... it was its low cost of 240mp and its 1.5s setup time....
and it has been buffed in a number of other ways:



In my last game alone the 2 maxims I used had 1194% efficiency vs double leig. (2vs2).

1 Nov 2020, 12:29 PM
#205
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:09 PMVipper
and it has been buffed in a number of other ways:



In my last game alone the 2 maxims I used had 1194% efficiency vs double leig. (2vs2).



none of these stats exceed that of other machineguns though... what changes did u identify exactly that would justify the maxim overperforming when given the suppression of other MGs? in fact it most likely should be worse since the maxim has terrible arc compared to other machineguns of comparable suppression (post buff)
1 Nov 2020, 12:42 PM
#206
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:29 PMgbem


none of these stats exceed that of other machineguns though... what changes did u identify exactly that would justify the maxim overperforming when given the suppression of other MGs? in fact it most likely should be worse since the maxim has terrible arc compared to other machineguns of comparable suppression (post buff)

Man pls start reading more carefully and post less. Also look at buff to suppression maxim had so far.

What I had is this:
" change seem huge at first glance I suggest you test in mod."

With these value combined with all the buffs maxims has given and sustained fire maxim will probably be the best HMG in game.
1 Nov 2020, 12:45 PM
#207
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:42 PMVipper

Man pls start reading more carefully and post less. Also look at buff to suppression maxim had so far.

What I had is this:
" change seem huge at first glance I suggest you test in mod."

With these value combined with all the buffs maxims has given and sustained fire maxim will probably be the best HMG in game.


the MG42 still has superior suppression superior arc and superior vet 1 abilities... i do not understand what stat you are referring to....
1 Nov 2020, 12:53 PM
#208
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:45 PMgbem


the MG42 still has superior suppression superior arc and superior vet 1 abilities... i do not understand what stat you are referring to....

That is because you are not reading carefully and I can not help you with that.
1 Nov 2020, 12:58 PM
#209
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:53 PMVipper

That is because you are not reading carefully and I can not help you with that.


i would prefer if you state the exact stat youre referring to instead of making vague comments... one can easily be "vague and mysterious" like a mystic but that proves nothing... what exact stat are you referring to? please identify the change youve mentioned in the patchnotes which could potentially break the maxim if it had the same suppression as a vickers?
1 Nov 2020, 13:28 PM
#210
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:58 PMgbem


i would prefer if you state the exact stat youre referring to instead of making vague comments... one can easily be "vague and mysterious" like a mystic but that proves nothing... what exact stat are you referring to? please identify the change youve mentioned in the patchnotes which could potentially break the maxim if it had the same suppression as a vickers?

I have provided them they the spoiler in post 204
1 Nov 2020, 13:32 PM
#211
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 13:28 PMVipper

I have provided them they the spoiler in post 204


there are alot of irrelevant stat changes in post 204... what stat are you concerned about specifically?
1 Nov 2020, 14:02 PM
#212
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 782

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Nov 2020, 12:09 PMVipper

Suppression changes:

Suppression reduced from 0.00015909 to 0.00006
Suppression versus light cover from 0.5 to 0.75
Suppression versus heavy cover from 0.1 to 0.2
Suppression vs suppressed targets increased from 0.5 to 0.65
Nearby suppression modifier from 0.8 to 1.25
Nearby suppression radius increased from 10 to 13




1910 Maxim HMG
The Maxim is being slightly adjusted to acquire targets more quickly and deal more suppression.

Suppression from 0.00006 to 0.000065.
Nearby suppression from 1.25 to 1.
Ready-Aim Time to 0.125.
Fire-Aim Time to 0.125.
Fire-Aim Time multipliers standardized to 0.5.



My first suggestion was to increase the suppression from 0.000065 to 0.0001. The old maxim had a suppression of 0.00015909. This is far far less then what it had initially, and the rate of fire was never increased, only the burst length to compensate for the reduced suppression. If the burst length needs to be shortened, to compensate for the increased suppression value, that's understandable but I already listed how increasing the suppression will effect its suppression speeds. Suppressing in 2.8 seconds isn't exactly good compared to other MGs-in fact its still quite poor.
1 Nov 2020, 14:20 PM
#213
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13023 | Subs: 1



My first suggestion was to increase the suppression from 0.000065 to 0.0001. The old maxim had a suppression of 0.00015909. This is far far less then what it had initially, and the rate of fire was never increased, only the burst length to compensate for the reduced suppression. If the burst length needs to be shortened, to compensate for the increased suppression value, that's understandable but I already listed how increasing the suppression will effect its suppression speeds. Suppressing in 2.8 seconds isn't exactly good compared to other MGs-in fact its still quite poor.

In all truth non one seem to know exactly how suppression works.

That fact thou that the mod Team went into trouble to reduce the suppression bonus of the a bulletin by 3% indicates that even changes so small can have large impact and you are suggesting a 56% change.

The fact that when they did lower the suppression the increased all those other factors also indicates that those other factor will probably need to be reverted if one uses your suggested numbers.

That is why I suggest to you to create a mod and test your numbers.
1 Nov 2020, 15:07 PM
#214
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1225

Those other factors never showed to be off any meaningfull impact. I never knew or noticed it preforming better vs inf in cover then other mg,s.

I cant find those values vs cover in the stat.site maybe tgey have been reverted already?
If not and supression is buffed those need to be brought down to normal.
1 Nov 2020, 23:50 PM
#216
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

Guys, Maxim spam is never coming back. The reason why Maxim spam was so popular were as follows:

Cons were terrible and unreliable while Maxims had the same cost.
Maxim had almost instant setup.
Maxim had much better suppression.
Maxim had a narrow arc, so multiple Maxims were needed anyway to cover an area.

Since then, all of these points have been addressed:

Cons rifles are more consistent, 7-man upgrade.
Maxim received cost and build time increases.
Maxim setup is now 3s, just like all other HMGs.
Maxim's suppression was more than halved.
Maxim's arc was improved to succ less.

Imo, buffing suppression to a middling number, a formation adjustment to reduce deathloop, and then reducing the cost by 10mp to match MG34 would be sufficient.

It would still have longer setup than old spammy Maxim.
It would still have less suppression than old spammy Maxim.
It would still be less competitive with cons than old spammy Maxim.

There's no rational reason to fear a return of Maxim spam with proposed Maxim buffs.
Pip
1 Nov 2020, 23:56 PM
#217
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

Guys, Maxim spam is never coming back. The reason why Maxim spam was so popular were as follows:

Cons were terrible and unreliable while Maxims had the same cost.
Maxim had almost instant setup.
Maxim had much better suppression.
Maxim had a narrow arc, so multiple Maxims were needed anyway to cover an area.

Since then, all of these points have been addressed:

Cons rifles are more consistent, 7-man upgrade.
Maxim received cost and build time increases.
Maxim setup is now 3s, just like all other HMGs.
Maxim's suppression was more than halved.
Maxim's arc was improved to succ less.

Imo, buffing suppression to a middling number, a formation adjustment to reduce deathloop, and then reducing the cost by 10mp to match MG34 would be sufficient.

It would still have longer setup than old spammy Maxim.
It would still have less suppression than old spammy Maxim.
It would still be less competitive with cons than old spammy Maxim.

There's no rational reason to fear a return of Maxim spam with proposed Maxim buffs.


Shame Lelic are so stingy with updates. Could have a trial branch to test these sorts of things out.

If they just gave the Balance™ team more autonomy, especially at this point in the game's life, we might be able to get into such a better position regarding Balance. Or in a far worse position, who knows.

I suppose they're justifiably fearful of mistakes in balance making Lelic themselves look retarded though. Its likely many users think it's Lelic themselves doing these patches. They should just bite the bullet and let go of the reins though, if they're not going to continue supervising.
2 Nov 2020, 01:29 AM
#219
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Guys, Maxim spam is never coming back. The reason why Maxim spam was so popular were as follows:

Cons were terrible and unreliable while Maxims had the same cost.
Maxim had almost instant setup.
Maxim had much better suppression.
Maxim had a narrow arc, so multiple Maxims were needed anyway to cover an area.

Since then, all of these points have been addressed:

Cons rifles are more consistent, 7-man upgrade.
Maxim received cost and build time increases.
Maxim setup is now 3s, just like all other HMGs.
Maxim's suppression was more than halved.
Maxim's arc was improved to succ less.

Imo, buffing suppression to a middling number, a formation adjustment to reduce deathloop, and then reducing the cost by 10mp to match MG34 would be sufficient.

It would still have longer setup than old spammy Maxim.
It would still have less suppression than old spammy Maxim.
It would still be less competitive with cons than old spammy Maxim.

There's no rational reason to fear a return of Maxim spam with proposed Maxim buffs.



+1 to this... to anyone who fears the return of the maxim spam this statement should be quoted
2 Nov 2020, 02:03 AM
#220
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1601 | Subs: 3

I have no idea how suppression works exactly, but I'm under the impression you have to take suppression of the weapon as well as suppression recovery of the target squad into account.

Say you need 100 suppression 'points' to suppress a squad. A squad recovers 1 suppression per second, your HMG deals 2 suppression per second, you'd do 2 - 1 = 1 suppression per second. If the HMG would deal 3 suppression per second, you'd do 3 - 1 = 2 suppression per second, which would be a 100% increase in effectiveness instead of 50% as you might've thought.
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