Login

russian armor

State of the ISU-152

PAGES (12)down
25 Jun 2020, 13:00 PM
#101
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 12:58 PMKatitof

Out of all things that make absolutely no sense written on this forum in this month, this one makes least sense of them all.

That idea is so bad you should feel bad for conceiving it.


No, because that is why ISU overperforms. Maybe you start playing that game?

Even an overperforming unit can only hold the ground if the rest can support its weak spots.
Edit: and when that mean, that the only option to counter the ISU is to dive in, that it should be possible.

It is like road-killing is still a thing. It is simply more difficult to counter soviets support, even if Zis is weaker than PaK40 on paper it has a large squad and Ostheer's tanks suck killing them (beside Brummbär with bad range)
25 Jun 2020, 13:02 PM
#102
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



No, because that is why ISU overperforms. Maybe you start playing that game?

Even an overperforming unit can only hold the ground if the rest can support its weak spots.


JT can hurt infantry, therefore we should remove stock PaKs.

That's the level of stupid idea you've climbed on.
25 Jun 2020, 13:04 PM
#103
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 10:57 AMVipper
People keep repeating that ISU-152 can bounce but seem to ignore that even when it bounce it does damage. It actually has one of the highest deflection damage in game.

It does 120 damage on deflection up to 162 with "mark vehicle".

On top of that it comes with 400/350/300 penetration skill shot.

That skill shot costs 90mu if i recall...
25 Jun 2020, 13:09 PM
#104
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 13:02 PMKatitof


JT can hurt infantry, therefore we should remove stock PaKs.

That's the level of stupid idea you've climbed on.


That is the path you choose. I say since years Jagdtigers rotation is way too fast for what it is. It should be an unit that shouldn't be build in 1vs1 and 2vs2.

Zis3 is weaker than PaK40 because they have non-doc long-range tankhunters. If Panther gets 60 range also PaK40 would overperform.

It is a play of needed micro. And if both line-units have a snare it is more difficult than if only one has it. Zis3 is more resistant than PaK40 and Ostheers tanks doesn't have an real AI advantage to deal with that like e.g. soviets can.

It isn't much, but the fraction's design benefit is clear.

Edit: ISU overperforms, because it can count on the rest. Elefant it good, but it is fighing with an line-up doesn't able to perform as evective or pop-cap doesn't allow any real use.
25 Jun 2020, 13:32 PM
#105
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 12:58 PMKatitof

Out of all things that make absolutely no sense written on this forum in this month, this one makes least sense of them all.

That idea is so bad you should feel bad for conceiving it.

But what he wrote makes sense. Either make ISU less potent or make diving less punishing for the attacker. My idea would be to first make regular mines work like snares. They would cripple the engine only if the medium or heavy vehicle was already damaged.
25 Jun 2020, 13:33 PM
#106
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8


But what he wrote makes sense. Either make ISU less potent or make diving less punishing for the attacker. My idea would be to first make regular mines work like snares. They would cripple the engine only if the medium or heavy vehicle was already damaged.

The sole fact you agree with him is further confirmation of the utter insanity of the idea.
25 Jun 2020, 13:38 PM
#107
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

My idea would be to first make regular mines work like snares. They would cripple the engine only if the medium or heavy vehicle was already damaged.


That is idea is so bad that it's frightening.
25 Jun 2020, 13:39 PM
#108
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 13:33 PMKatitof

The sole fact you agree with him is further confirmation of the utter insanity of the idea.


hmm... little troll. Beside, I still think you are one reason this game still sucks, your forum influence
consumes a lot of potential, because you simply love broken mechanics. No insult, simply obersavation.

Maybe you start modding and move some units around, simply to see how it performs with its performance. You would cry.
25 Jun 2020, 13:41 PM
#109
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



That is idea is so bad that it's frightening.


It is an idea, every idea is good because it starts a discussion.

ISU has one problem, it works too smooth. a. make it worse or b. let the rest perform worse, that is how balancing works.
25 Jun 2020, 13:41 PM
#110
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



hmm... little troll. Beside, I still think you are one reason this game still sucks, your forum influence
consumes a lot of potential, because you simply love broken mechanics. No insult, simply obersavation.


I think you GREATLY overestimate my personal influence on games balance.
Thanks for appreciation tho.


Maybe you start modding and move some units around, simply to see how it performs with its performance. You would cry.

Maybe you would watch some replays and streamers, read some strategy guides, learn to play properly and use units as they are intended, you would stop crying.
25 Jun 2020, 13:42 PM
#111
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


That skill shot costs 90mu if i recall...

70
25 Jun 2020, 13:43 PM
#112
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 13:41 PMKatitof


I think you GREATLY overestimate my personal influence on games balance.
Thanks for appreciation tho.


It is your saltynes and presence, making most threads start to become troll-fests or slowly die because of bad admosphere.
25 Jun 2020, 13:47 PM
#113
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



It is your saltynes and presence, making most threads start to become troll-fests or slowly die because of bad admosphere.

If you don't like bad ideas being called out or contested, feel free to start a blog and turn comments off.

And threads die, because you can't endlessly talk about a single issue, even if the issue is a source of endless tears for you personally.

Most threads are completely exhausted by 5th page, then its just repeating everything that was already said or people who never should be allowed to have ideas bringing their ideas to light.
25 Jun 2020, 13:49 PM
#114
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

It is an idea, every idea is good because it starts a discussion.


No it's not, it's an abhorrent idea and deserves the criticism. I have the right to criticize as he has the right to post it, so cut the content policing.


Beside, I still think you are one reason this game still sucks


Feel free to play Iron Harvest.
25 Jun 2020, 13:51 PM
#115
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



No it's not, it's an abhorrent idea and deserves the criticism. I have the right to criticize as he has the right to post it, so cut the content policing.


Maybe you get it, that you confirming my post here. Self-reflection is calling. :D

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 13:47 PMKatitof

Most threads are completely exhausted by 5th page, then its just repeating everything that was already said or people who never should be allowed to have ideas bringing their ideas to light.


Never said that the balancing forum is very effective. It is a repetition on continuous loop.

25 Jun 2020, 14:22 PM
#116
avatar of Sumi

Posts: 132



I have no idea where you want to go with this one, especially since you continue to critique the AT capabilities. You are describing the obvious what 10+ have already iterated beforehand: You get the most value if your ISU shoots HE rounds at infantry for as long as possible.


What you are describing is the difference between a dedicated tank destroyer and a hybrid unit. With the same logic (ISU's AI is very good, the AT is allegedly bad) I could argue that the Elefant needs a big buff in the AI department, because it did not even kill a model after 10 shots. Regarding your calculation examples: A unit with 960 health would need 4 shots from both Elefant AND ISU (assuming all penetrate of course). Similarly, mediums take 3 shots to kill. The Elefant had 320 damage before and was nerfed to 300 to achieve exactly that. The main difference is in the snare potential that you need to back the units up with.
You also should know that the ISU does deflection damage which somewhat compensates the mediocre AT (or better to say penetration) of the unit.


You need to understand that just as Panther is mediocre in AI and pretty good at AT, Pz is good at AT and AI. Su-85 has non existent AI and pretty good at AT, T-34 mediocre AI and AT. Now what I want you to understand from this statement is that all the Axis tanks have both AI and AT whereas Soviet has to field SU-85 specifically which lacks AI. Elefant and ISU fits perfectly in this jigsaw where Elefant has no AI and ISU has pretty good AI and mediocre AT for 260 fuel. I don't want to simplify this anymore.

Also in regards to snare Axis have the best of snares and it is the pivot of their structure whereas Allies suffer from it and have to spend fuel to upgrade for snares.


I don't know if I understand what you want to say. Please rephrase this, because the only thing I got is that if Axis have a resource lead, they will also have more units/vehicles out, which is not surprising.
If your point is that stalling for a heavy is not worth it then don't do it? But again, maybe rephrase this because I don't know what you want to say.


I never said stalling for a heavy is not worth it xD, I am calling out players who gift territory control to soviet players who are stalling for ISU and let them accumulate 260 fuel without pushing him out of territories with pz4 and pzwfr.
25 Jun 2020, 14:36 PM
#117
avatar of Jiav

Posts: 32

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 14:22 PMSumi


You need to understand that just as Panther is mediocre in AI and pretty good at AT, Pz is good at AT and AI. Su-85 has non existent AI and pretty good at AT, T-34 mediocre AI and AT. Now what I want you to understand from this statement is that all the Axis tanks have both AI and AT whereas Soviet has to field SU-85 specifically which lacks AI. Elefant and ISU fits perfectly in this jigsaw where Elefant has no AI and ISU has pretty good AI and mediocre AT for 260 fuel. I don't want to simplify this anymore.

Also in regards to snare Axis have the best of snares and it is the pivot of their structure whereas Allies suffer from it and have to spend fuel to upgrade for snares.



I never said stalling for a heavy is not worth it xD, I am calling out players who gift territory control to soviet players who are stalling for ISU and let them accumulate 260 fuel without pushing him out of territories with pz4 and pzwfr.


calling a Panther mediocre AI, mediocre to what an AEC?:D
MMX
25 Jun 2020, 14:47 PM
#118
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 11:50 AMKyle
[...]
Also, imo ISU-152 with it HE round are good wiping machine consider Axis infantry are mainly 4 man squad, 1 HE shot is usually good enough to force retreat
[...]


the 4 man argument, as appropriate it may be in many other cases, is kind of weak for units with huge aoe like the isu152. a clumped 6 entity squad will take just as much damage per model as a clumped 4 man squad when hit dead center. and if bunched up tighly enough both are almost equally likely be nuked in a single hit.
the thing is the overall formation size, which doesn't really change much between 6 and 4 man squads is much more important than the model count for aoe damage. therefore, the time for the isu to kill a penal squad is not much greater than to wipe a gren squad - and certainly not 33% higher as the model count difference would suggest.
25 Jun 2020, 14:48 PM
#119
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 14:22 PMSumi
T-34 mediocre AI


whut..?
25 Jun 2020, 14:48 PM
#120
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jun 2020, 14:47 PMMMX


the 4 man argument, as appropriate it may be in many other cases, is kind of weak for units with huge aoe like the isu152. a clumped 6 entity squad will take just as much damage per model as a clumped 4 man squad when hit dead center. and if bunched up tighly enough both are almost equally likely be nuked in a single hit.
the thing is the overall formation size, which doesn't really change much between 6 and 4 man squads is much more important than the model count for aoe damage. therefore, the time for the isu to kill a penal squad is not much greater than to wipe a gren squad - and certainly not 33% higher as the model count difference would suggest.


I see main problem on countering PaKs and HMGs, not mainly inf. To counter Ele effective normal AT-guns are enough.
PAGES (12)down
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

598 users are online: 2 members and 596 guests
Crecer13, A_E
21 posts in the last 24h
49 posts in the last week
103 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44657
Welcome our newest member, Mitali121
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM