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SU-76 - A Slight Adjustment

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2 Jun 2020, 16:33 PM
#81
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3


You keep repeating myths imo.


Well it worked for me, so I got to rank 33 in 3v3 Ost, hence why I’m saying it’s a player issue instead of a faction issue. I could be wrong I guess, but that’s my perspective. With some skill I can leverage the Elephant into protecting my army against ISU153s, heavies, 60 range TDs and mediums.



This will brick OST and turn the STUG-G, which is already pretty underwhelming, into an absolute joke.


Yes a slight mobility increase to the worst and most immobile TD in the game, which noone builds, will make one of the best TDs in the game into an absolute joke. Never mind the fact you called the StuGG underwhelming.

You’re talking about units you don’t understand.
2 Jun 2020, 17:45 PM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

Imo the main problem of the unit is overlap so one could try to create more room for the unit.

If one want to create a role for the unit so that it does not overlap so much one could also try to follow the Stug -E design and increase the AI while decreasing the AT capabilities of the unit.
2 Jun 2020, 18:48 PM
#83
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

The reason I never brought up a StuG-E idea, is that it'd likely be more oppressive because of 24/7 HE shells that are incoming by the 6-8 minute mark and even if its AT was lowered, it'd still be enough to tackle light vehicles in that time frame. Sure you can have shell swaps, but unless the HE shells are range 40, which then you get a function that is very meh on a fragile unit, I don't believe it'd be good for the game.

And talks about SU-76 barrages being better, well that is easily addressed with cooldown recharge was decreased. Its damage could just not be affected by veterancy 2 and the extra 2 shells could be removed.

I will restate my priority on changes:

1 - Barrage Recharge
2 - Rotation Rate
3 - Speed

Only 1-2 needs to be implemented max before others things need to be addressed like its strange veterancy 1 which as I mentioned in the video doesn't suit it. It doesn't need to self-sight for a vehicle that generally doesn't chase and operates at the back of the line. A better veterancy ability to suit the unit would be ideal even if it's just adjustments to the barrage over the course of the game.
2 Jun 2020, 19:12 PM
#84
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 13:09 PMVipper

Let me clear any misunderstanding:

1) I have made the point that if the unit becomes more mobile it needs to lose the crush human which it does need in the first place.

2) OP has suggest that the unit should have base stat mobility increase to:

Acceleration 2.3
Deceleration 4.4
Rotation 32->3.6-38
Speed 6.3->6.7-6.9

Given that the unit already get mobility bonus via veterancy +25%

That would make the unit have:
Acceleration 2.3
Deceleration 4.4
Rotation 45-47.5
Speed 6.7-6.9

and it would be one of the most mobile units with mobility superior to the Panther.

That would make a nuisance do deal with since if properly microed it would able to kite from outside the range of most unit and barrage ATGs.

I see no real reason to turn the unit into a kite unit unless the profile of the gun is changed to be inline with Puma with low accuracy penetration at max range.

It has roughly the same durability as the Puma but no turret nor escape smoke it doesn't have the capability to perform with lowered pen. If the player vets up and maintains one of the squishiest vehicles in the game they should certainly be rewarded well shouldn't they? Mobility is a necessity for this unit. It's all she's got. Losing human crush is a no brainer but so what if it's more mobile than a Panther when vetted? Should getting a PA there just immediately make vetted su76s explode?
2 Jun 2020, 19:15 PM
#85
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Totally disagree on SU76 losing crush. You should not be able to just ignore vehicles and act like they don't exist. SU76 should maintain crush, ESPECIALLY as a vehicle that gets engine damage from a snare at full health.
2 Jun 2020, 19:40 PM
#86
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

This vomparison is very misleading. Raw penetration values mean nothing. Also accuracy values (plus ideally scatter) is missing. I don't have their current stats at hand, but SU76 got a rework a year ago or so where its accuracy was nerfed iirc. I don't know about how it compares to the Stug at the moment.
Additionally, the increased health and the 40 difference in damage are a huge deal. It's the difference why StuG is a very effective anti medium vehicle while SOV players rarely go for an SU76 to counter mediums. SOV has more cost effevtive AT units, yes, but the SU76 is quite unreliable especially against OKW P4s and the low damage make it very hard to actually finish it off.
I don't think OPs suggestions would fix SOV T3, but I also doubt that it would make the SU76 broken.


Not sure how I missed accuracy, since it was in the video and my notes. Anyway:

SU-76 Acc: 0.05/0.04/0.0375 (at 0m/30m/60 range)
StuGG Acc: 0.06/0.05/0.04 (at 0/25/50 range)

Scatter angle for both is 5. Distance offsets/ratios are a bit different, but to be honest, I don't know how those impact gameplay.

As for the rest, I know the SU76 isn't effective against OKW's P4; I specifically made the comparison with OST for this reason. OKW also has the JP4, which at 60 range, can return fire - its the same reason why OKW is much less vulnerable to "60 range TDs" in team games (M36, SU85, etc.). As for OST, the Stug's armor is low enough that the SU76 has a 100% chance to pen at max range, but its speed and range is low enough that it can't return fire. Meanwhile OST has no 60-range TDs, meaning they can't actually return fire.


Yes a slight mobility increase to the worst and most immobile TD in the game, which noone builds, will make one of the best TDs in the game into an absolute joke. Never mind the fact you called the StuGG underwhelming.

You’re talking about units you don’t understand.


This is objectively false. The Su76 is actually one of the fastest and most mobile TDs in the game, and the fastest and most mobile case-mate TD in the game.

Current "live-game" stats
Su76: 6.3 speed, 2.3 acceleration, 30 rotation.
OKW's JP4: 5.5 speed, 1.9 acceleration, 20 rotation.
OST's Stug: 6 speed, 2.1 acceleration, 28 rotation.
SU-85: 5.7 speed, 2.1 acceleration, 22 rotation.

Taking the fastest, most mobile, case-mate TD in the game, making it even faster, while keeping its 60 range will inherently make a slower, 50-range, more expensive TD a joke - especially when it has a 100% chance to pen.
2 Jun 2020, 19:41 PM
#87
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Current "live-game" stats
Su76: 6.3 speed, 2.3 acceleration, 30 rotation.
OKW's JP4: 5.5 speed, 1.9 acceleration, 20 rotation.
OST's Stug: 6 speed, 2.1 acceleration, 28 rotation.
SU-85: 5.7 speed, 2.1 acceleration, 22 rotation.


Great work man, you compared a Light TD to medium TDs.

And if you're thinking of replying that it's a medium TD, then please tell me why it's in a LV tier, with a LV price and if the SU85 is a heavy TD. I'm dying to know.
2 Jun 2020, 19:42 PM
#88
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

delete
2 Jun 2020, 19:43 PM
#89
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

Great work man, you compared a Light TD to medium TDs.


Your claim was that the Su76 was the "most immobile TD in the game".

If you had said "most immobile light TD in the game" you'd have been correct, but its also a category with only 2 units in it; the Su76 and Puma.
2 Jun 2020, 19:46 PM
#90
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



Your claim was that the Su76 was the "most immobile TD in the game".

If you had said "most immobile light TD in the game" you'd have been correct, but its also a category with only 2 units in it; the Su76 and Puma.


Yes I legitimately thought the SU76 was more immobile than the Jagdtiger. Indeed.

There's actually 3, the AEC, Puma and SU76. The SU76 is the most immobile.
2 Jun 2020, 19:48 PM
#91
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

Yes I legitimately thought the SU76 was more immobile than the Jagdtiger. Indeed.

There's actually 3, the AEC, Puma and SU76. The SU76 is the most immobile.


JagdTiger is a doc-locked ultra-heavy, it wouldn't make sense to compare it to any non-doc TDs.

As for the AEC, that's a valid point. However, you'll also note that the AEC and Puma have 40 and 50 range, respectively. They can't kite TDs, unlike the SU76.
2 Jun 2020, 19:52 PM
#92
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1


It has roughly the same durability as the Puma but no turret nor escape smoke it doesn't have the capability to perform with lowered pen. If the player vets up and maintains one of the squishiest vehicles in the game they should certainly be rewarded well shouldn't they? Mobility is a necessity for this unit. It's all she's got. Losing human crush is a no brainer but so what if it's more mobile than a Panther when vetted? Should getting a PA there just immediately make vetted su76s explode?

If you want to compare the Puma with Su-76 you ahve to kill in mind how bad Puma is at max range:
Puma
Far accuracy(50) 0.25 Penetration 80

Su-76
Far accuracy(60) 0.375 Penetration 160.

That is more than x150% better accuracy and x200% better penetration at max range.

The unit is safe by staying at distance. It does need to faster than all ostheer tanks when it outranges them and when the barrage outranges Paks.

How are one supposed to counter a cheap unit that can barrage better than a mortar from ranges up to close to 90 that is faster than all vehicles?
2 Jun 2020, 19:52 PM
#93
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

As for the AEC, that's a valid point. However, you'll also note that the AEC and Puma have 40 and 50 range, respectively. They can't kite TDs, unlike the SU76.


Which has proven to be pointless since the Puma has aimed shot and a lot of mobility and smoke, same with AEC, while the su76 dies if it's caught out of position and dived.

The fact noone builds the SU76 and everyone builds AEC/Puma is a good indication that range isn't the end of everything.
2 Jun 2020, 20:04 PM
#94
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

The reason I never brought up a StuG-E idea, is that it'd likely be more oppressive because of 24/7 HE shells that are incoming by the 6-8 minute mark and even if its AT was lowered, it'd still be enough to tackle light vehicles in that time frame. Sure you can have shell swaps, but unless the HE shells are range 40, which then you get a function that is very meh on a fragile unit, I don't believe it'd be good for the game.

And talks about SU-76 barrages being better, well that is easily addressed with cooldown recharge was decreased. Its damage could just not be affected by veterancy 2 and the extra 2 shells could be removed.

I will restate my priority on changes:

1 - Barrage Recharge

The barrage already gets lots of buffs with veterancy including a -25% recharge why mess with it?

Simply make the barrage a vet 1 ability so that it can no be spammed from start and remove cost.
or
Have each vet level reduce cost and CD


2 - Rotation Rate

Again the unit get a high rotation bonus of +25% and is probably one of the fasted rotating vehicles why increase the base stat?
Simply spread the bonus across vet levels if you have to


3 - Speed

Why turn the unit in kiter?



Only 1-2 needs to be implemented max before others things need to be addressed like its strange veterancy 1 which as I mentioned in the video doesn't suit it. It doesn't need to self-sight for a vehicle that generally doesn't chase and operates at the back of the line. A better veterancy ability to suit the unit would be ideal even if it's just adjustments to the barrage over the course of the game.


Why not create more room for the unit by making the SU-85 less cost efficient vs mediums?
2 Jun 2020, 20:08 PM
#95
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 957

Which has proven to be pointless since the Puma has aimed shot and a lot of mobility and smoke, same with AEC, while the su76 dies if it's caught out of position and dived.

The fact noone builds the SU76 and everyone builds AEC/Puma is a good indication that range isn't the end of everything.


TDs lose when they are out of position and dived on; that's supposed to happen. I'm not surprised when STUGs/JP4s are destroyed when they're caught of position and rushed/flanked, either.

As for 'no one building' the Su76, that's simply because it's over-shadowed by better choices for each role. Against OST, early/mid game AT isn't needed since their LVs can easily be beaten by the T70 and/or PTRS upgraded infantry. Meanwhile, mobile artillery is better supplied by mortars and Zis-3s, which have the added bonus of saving on fuel. As a result, the AI power of the T70 is much more valuable when directly choosing between the two, when playing against OST.

Against OKW, I'd argue that the T70's AI power is, again, much more important. Additionally, OKW's mid/late game units tend of have more armor (P4-J/JP4) than OSTs, making the SU76s pen too low to be effective once those mid/late units arrive. Essentially, the Su76 doesn't scale against OST.

The problem is, the proposed buffs increase the SU-76's power in both roles. Its AI power becomes higher, due to more frequent barrages, and its AT power increases (indirectly) because its much more mobile - and less likely to be destroyed when out of position, or when its dived on. Because of this, and because of OST's lower mid/late game armor values (compared to OKW), that increased mobility means the SU-76 becomes more effective - making it a viable "spam" (i.e. when building 3+ of them) counter against essentially all of OST's T3 units, while simultaneously providing fire against OST's static units (MG42, Pak40, etc.).
2 Jun 2020, 20:23 PM
#96
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

2 Jun 2020, 20:26 PM
#97
avatar of miragefla
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 20:04 PMVipper

Again the unit get a high rotation bonus of +25% and is probably one of the fasted rotating vehicles why increase the base stat?


Then incorporate some of it into the base stats. It's that simple. All you keep thinking is the raw stats when I already mentioned in the 1st post veterancy can be adjusted so keep that it mind.

And nerfing the SU-85 to be more anti-heavy, sure, but that doesn't mean the SU-76 doesn't need a minor boost.

And for Doomlord, I have already mentioned the priority should be barrage and rotation. If speed needs to be left out, sure, but it shouldn't be as clunky as it is now for a LV.
2 Jun 2020, 20:29 PM
#98
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143


The fact noone builds the SU76 and everyone builds AEC/Puma is a good indication that range isn't the end of everything.


Well yes,
Its called turret rotation.
2 Jun 2020, 20:32 PM
#99
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Jun 2020, 19:52 PMVipper

If you want to compare the Puma with Su-76 you ahve to kill in mind how bad Puma is at max range:
Puma
Far accuracy(50) 0.25 Penetration 80

Su-76
Far accuracy(60) 0.375 Penetration 160.

That is more than x150% better accuracy and x200% better penetration at max range.

The unit is safe by staying at distance. It does need to faster than all ostheer tanks when it outranges them and when the barrage outranges Paks.

How are one supposed to counter a cheap unit that can barrage better than a mortar from ranges up to close to 90 that is faster than all vehicles?

And the pumas stats are more than made up for by being able to use it aggressively. Despite its much higher pen have you ever seen an SU76 dive for rocket arty?

The SU76 is defensive AT and support via barrage. Increasing its rotation isn't going to displace the T70 and make the new speedy SU76 meta but it might make it so someone, somewhere actually builds one. Even if only once.

As for ost not being able to dive for it, it's not exactly going to be racking up the damage with its pen. There's nothing wrong with a defensive unit excelling in the defense. It would basicly be a less cancerous Scott, assuming someone builds one and manages to vet it.
It was always meant to be a multiple glass cannon. The grenadier of tanks if you will. It can do things well and from range but if your micro slips buh bye.
2 Jun 2020, 20:32 PM
#100
avatar of Latch

Posts: 769

Very well made video!
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