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Assault Grenadier spam - every, single, game. What gives?

27 May 2020, 23:42 PM
#41
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 589

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2020, 07:21 AMmrgame2
oh the doctrine gives you OP tiger ace. not just a regular tiger.
so a vet P4 + tiger Ace + 6 men assgren with forward recon/reinforce.

You just need to do a double paks build + pwafer for rocket arty if need.

nerf bat plz


"Just build everything and then you'll have everything"
28 May 2020, 00:09 AM
#42
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1


AGrens closing on rifles in cover, from max range, will lose every time - and will often lose enough models while closing that they'll be forced to retreat before they do any significant damage (if any). Meanwhile, the rifles in cover won't be suppressed by the MG, due to the suppression reduction from being in cover.


You mean they will lose if they don't use sprint

Agrens are super strong right off the bat, but even with 6 man upgrade they still fall-off as the game goes on. That's what makes them balanced imo, but their opening strength is very good
28 May 2020, 00:25 AM
#43
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 953

You mean they will lose if they don't use sprint

Agrens are super strong right off the bat, but even with 6 man upgrade they still fall-off as the game goes on. That's what makes them balanced imo, but their opening strength is very good


It depends on the situation, really.

2x AGrens sprinting towards 2x Rifles (in green cover) are going to win.
1x AGren supported by an MG42 sprinting towards 2x Rifles (in green cover) is going to lose.
2x AGrens sprinting towards 2x Rifles (in green cover), but where the rifles are spread out a fair bit, are probably going to 'trade'.
28 May 2020, 00:52 AM
#44
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1


It depends on the situation, really.


Yup I agree. Was objecting against "will lose everytime."

But that mg42 scenario I don't see your point. MGs are specifically designed to be bad against heavy cover? Rifles should win that? You still have a chance anyway with nade assault. If they dodge they are immediately suppressed

If someone had to change them nerf early game and buff scaling. But to me that makes them more bland, they are meant for early game strength. Plus they already gave us 6th man
29 May 2020, 02:31 AM
#45
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



Yup I agree. Was objecting against "will lose everytime."

But that mg42 scenario I don't see your point. MGs are specifically designed to be bad against heavy cover? Rifles should win that? You still have a chance anyway with nade assault. If they dodge they are immediately suppressed

If someone had to change them nerf early game and buff scaling. But to me that makes them more bland, they are meant for early game strength. Plus they already gave us 6th man


2 units on 1, *and* using muni abilities to force a retreat is a balance issue?
29 May 2020, 03:32 AM
#46
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1

2 units on 1, *and* using muni abilities to force a retreat is a balance issue?

Can you read? His example was 2 Riflemen against agren and mg42. That is not 2 on 1, it's 2 on 2

On top of that, where do you see me saying there's a balance issue? I said this a couple posts earlier:

Agrens are super strong right off the bat, but even with 6 man upgrade they still fall-off as the game goes on. That's what makes them balanced imo, but their opening strength is very good

29 May 2020, 04:21 AM
#47
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356


Can you read?


I was trying to understand why you'd say:
But that mg42 scenario I don't see your point.


I missed the context trying to figure out why you'd disagree. Sorry. There's so many poorly reasoned "unit X is OP!!!!" posts from other users that my eyes glaze over sometimes.
29 May 2020, 04:31 AM
#48
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1


I was trying to understand why you'd say:

I missed the context trying to figure out why you'd disagree. Sorry. There's so many poorly reasoned "unit X is OP!!!!" posts from other users that my eyes glaze over sometimes.


No worries, I hear ya

I gave a suggestion for changing them which might of confused things. I think they are fine as is though
30 May 2020, 13:19 PM
#49
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



You mean they will lose if they don't use sprint

Agrens are super strong right off the bat, but even with 6 man upgrade they still fall-off as the game goes on. That's what makes them balanced imo, but their opening strength is very good

Maybe You should explain to Sov players that cons don't need extra 7th man or upgrades simply because they have oorah?
30 May 2020, 16:46 PM
#50
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1


Maybe You should explain to Sov players that cons don't need extra 7th man or upgrades simply because they have oorah?


Lol what the fuck are you talking about?

You know assgrens also have an upgrade that gives them an extra man.... Right?

What does this even have to do with the thread? Nothing, it has nothing to do with the thread...
30 May 2020, 17:48 PM
#51
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Lol what the fuck are you talking about?

You know assgrens also have an upgrade that gives them an extra man.... Right?

What does this even have to do with the thread? Nothing, it has nothing to do with the thread...

Observational bias. You suggested that they have sprint and that's why it is ok for them to lose against mainline infantry (rifles unupgraded) due to dropping models when closing in. It is similar to saying that because conscripts have sprint (oorah) they don't/didn't deserve buffs.

I don't think that the fact assult grens can sprint can be used as an argument for not buffing them to work as intended. IMO assault grens got much weaker because of IS buffs, US infantry buffs (mid-range buff) and conscript buffs. Power creep unfortunately. But is seems that again ost will be the faction that wont be given any buffs early game and their early game shock units will be left worse in comparison.
30 May 2020, 17:59 PM
#52
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1


Observational bias. You suggested that they have sprint and that's why it is ok for them to lose against mainline infantry (rifles unupgraded) due to dropping models when closing in.

No I said it's okay for assgrens to lose if they are walking up to rifles that are standing still behind heavy cover. At least acknowledge the specifics of the conversation if you're going to randomly insert yourself into it

Do you even know what observational bias means? It doesn't apply here, I play all 5 factions, Ive used ass grens quite a lot


It is similar to saying that because conscripts have sprint (oorah) they don't/didn't deserve buffs.


Again, I will point out to you that ass grens already received a very similar buff. They also got an upgrade which gives them an extra man.......


I don't think that the fact assult grens can sprint can be used as an argument for not buffing them to work as intended.


Thats not what I said I was talking about a specific scenario in which ass grens walk up to a rifle squad that's sitting behind cover. If you think ass grens should be able to walk up to any squad they want, regardless of cover/positioning, you're crazy

They don't need buffs because they're good enough in general, not just because they have sprint...
30 May 2020, 18:05 PM
#53
avatar of Baba

Posts: 600

havent seen a single ass gren spam so far
30 May 2020, 18:55 PM
#54
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351


.

Having exchanged polite greetings I say this: The power creep of allied infantry has affected the performance of assaut grens in a way that made them nearly useless/very risky to use. The possibility of losing to all purpose infantry often even at assgrens preferred distance makes them much less useful than intended imo.

Not really sure how to solve the equation but maybe they should have the sprint for free just with the cooldown like sort of "step on it". This would make muni starved early game ost use them more freely. They can never get the snare and scaling seems still poor with them so such a change seems fair to me.
30 May 2020, 19:45 PM
#55
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1

Not really sure how to solve the equation but maybe they should have the sprint for free just with the cooldown like sort of "step on it".


Free sprint would be absolutely broken. There's no equation to solve

They were given a 6th man upgrade for a reason. Talk about powercreep all you want, ass grens recieved a significant buff too
31 May 2020, 08:56 AM
#56
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Free sprint would be absolutely broken. There's no equation to solve

They were given a 6th man upgrade for a reason. Talk about powercreep all you want, ass grens recieved a significant buff too

Can't agree here I'm afraid. They received pseudo-buff. The buff is meant to make them more viable lategame, which it won't as as they will be too fragile against elite infantry and vetted mailine at the stage of the game anyway (they would be more sensibly buffed lategame imo if they had been give a snare, for example). They were nerfed early game when they were supposed to be a shock unit before the light vehicles arrive. By nerfed I mean the buffs to allied IS and Rifles, especially. They aren't able to compete with them early game enough to justify buying them. Unless, of course, in the hands of a much better player to their allied counterpart.

That's why I don't think free sprint with cooldown would be broken. Definitely, no more broken than abilities such as "step on in". In its current form, sprint may bleed ost too much of munitions. If it was free, there would be some chance to actually make assaut grens viable for players on a similar level without more dangerous combat-stat buffs.
31 May 2020, 09:50 AM
#57
avatar of grammar

Posts: 28


That's why I don't think free sprint with cooldown would be broken. Definitely, no more broken than abilities such as "step on in". In its current form, sprint may bleed ost too much of munitions. If it was free, there would be some chance to actually make assaut grens viable for players on a similar level without more dangerous combat-stat buffs.


I like that sprint has a munitions cost. Otherwise I would need to constantly weigh the value of some marginal use of sprint versus the speculative future cost of not having access to sprint during the cooldown. It's tiresome. Having a munitions cost makes a lot of marginal uses clearly not worth it, which frees me to think about other stuff.
31 May 2020, 09:55 AM
#58
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post31 May 2020, 09:50 AMgrammar


I like that sprint has a munitions cost. Otherwise I would need to constantly weigh the value of some marginal use of sprint versus the speculative future cost of not having access to sprint during the cooldown.


Look at the cooldown on "step on it". I don't think it requires a lot of planning.

But U are right that some more direct buff (as nerfing allied mainlines is probably out of question) to their combat performance would be more appropriate.

Like maybe what was done to rifles. The midrange distance value was played with I think. Maybe for ass grens the closerange distance value threshold could be increased (close range becomes "longer"/midrange becomes triggered later) so that you avoid situations in which a more spread out mainline infantry squad wins against them close range.
31 May 2020, 13:24 PM
#59
avatar of Serrith

Posts: 782


....


What a coincidence, assault grenadiers DID receive a similar buff to rifles.

Wehrmacht - Strategic Reserves

Assault Grenadiers
.....

MP40 Changes

MP 40s are having their mid-range power increased to match SMGs like the M3 Grease gun used by Assault Engineers. This change also affects Assault Officer and Volksgrenadier MP 40s, but not other MP40 variants.

MP 40 Mid range cooldown from 1.25 to 1
MP 40 Mid accuracy from 0.24 to 0.375
MP40 reload frequency from 4/5 to 6
MP40 reload from 2.8/3.5 to 2.8



Essentially you have an increase of about 40% DPS at range 17. Rifle buff was an increase to near range of 3 which increased their dps at range 6 by about 10%, dropping off as it reaches the midrange of 16(shorter then the mp40).

Combined with the stock buff to RA+a previous buff to vet RA, and reduction in reinforcement cost, assault grenadiers have been solidified as a very decent early game CQC squad.
And yes, like most other SMG infantry, they do fall off in the late game, though the 6man upgrade does help them scale and retain their usefulness more then most other SMG infantry.


31 May 2020, 14:04 PM
#60
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

Well I think to problem is more the power of the Thompson Upgrade which is incredible, according to https://coh2db.com/stats/#, close range (lower than 10), Thompson (took from rangers squad since they are 5 man squad) has 24 DPS while de MP40 has 15, plus the MP40 has bigger reload time and smaller burst. For comparison, a squad of Panzergrenadier with STG44 has only 15 DPS close range.

While this upgrade was only on paratroopers/rangers/assault guard there was no problem because it's performance fit the elite-infantry role, but such upgrade is now on Assault section (UKF) which are the british counterpart of Assaultgren and therefore outscale them hard.
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