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Assault Grenadier spam - every, single, game. What gives?

26 May 2020, 20:30 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8566 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 20:03 PMKatitof

I don't think you've seen a lot/any tournament game, speaking of recent qualifications over last 2 weekends.

Once more, try focus on the thread and not into what I do or do not do.
26 May 2020, 20:33 PM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8566 | Subs: 1



Map control, map control, map control. Fast transition into T2 PG and light vehicles. All that is the most relevant for 1v1.

But add a single more player and things change a lot. Once OH doesn't have to spread out thin, they can do fine with just Grens and MG42.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5lY9UfGKYM

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1QsLnpWUVHZXPcg4GDfGLOc7-NDjnKk

Haven't watch all games but for what i remember it seems that there are 2 main routes. Grenadier spam into 5 man upgrade or LMG42 Grens with Mg/sniper play when using Jaeger armor.

Or one can argue the exact opposite that AsG and Ostrup can no longer secure map control as effectively because there facing twice the enemy opponents. In the same time Ostheer have to defend a smaller area of the map so they can do that more effectively.
26 May 2020, 21:17 PM
#24
avatar of elchino7
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 20:33 PMVipper

Or one can argue the exact opposite that AsG and Ostrup can no longer secure map control as effectively because there facing twice the enemy opponents. In the same time Ostheer have to defend a smaller area of the map so they can do that more effectively.


You are basically saying the same i said before but deflecting on the point that Grenadiers are effective on (2v2) tournament setup.

Just because the most optimal way to play OH on 1v1 is using doctrinal infantry doesn't mean that Grenadiers as a unit is bad.
On top of that you have to take into account top players playstyle. Historically some people prefer brute force style of playing (say Von Ansten playing Gren spam with 5 man squads) or "traditional" OH play with MG/Sniper play (Luvnest).


26 May 2020, 21:20 PM
#25
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2841 | Subs: 1



That wasn't intended as an insult - it's just how the unit composition works. AGrens are aggressive, close-quarters units; that means they need to be pushing constantly to be useful (or holding really strange angles behind LOS blockers). The MG42 is exact opposite of this; it needs to stay stationary, and facing a single direction, or it suffers a large penalty (in the form of setup/teardown times). The two just don't synergize that well when attacking.

In a defensive roll, yes, the two actually work very well together, since flanking/pushing the MG becomes incredibly risky. However, if a match turns into a 'defensive war', the player with better long range DPS wins; and if the OST player invested into AGrens, they've given up a lot of their long range DPS.



The reply was specifically in the context of "why this is such a common strat at the low levels", at higher levels, dynamics change completely.


Don't you see the problem here, Ostheer is given the best of offensive and defensive tools at minute 1. If you push with the assgren you can bring the HMG along with and keep the pioneer close to watch from flank.
26 May 2020, 21:29 PM
#26
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8566 | Subs: 1



You are basically saying the same i said before but deflecting on the point that Grenadiers are effective on (2v2) tournament setup.

Just because the most optimal way to play OH on 1v1 is using doctrinal infantry doesn't mean that Grenadiers as a unit is bad.
On top of that you have to take into account top players playstyle. Historically some people prefer brute force style of playing (say Von Ansten playing Gren spam with 5 man squads) or "traditional" OH play with MG/Sniper play (Luvnest).



I did not post that grenadiers are bad, actually I posted something completely different, this is what I wrote:
"Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power"

Ostheer are good at defending and the smaller the area they have to defend the easier it get to defend it.
26 May 2020, 21:45 PM
#27
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 21:20 PMEsxile
Don't you see the problem here, Ostheer is given the best of offensive and defensive tools at minute 1. If you push with the assgren you can bring the HMG along with and keep the pioneer close to watch from flank.


AGrens closing on rifles in cover, from max range, will lose every time - and will often lose enough models while closing that they'll be forced to retreat before they do any significant damage (if any). Meanwhile, the rifles in cover won't be suppressed by the MG, due to the suppression reduction from being in cover.

26 May 2020, 21:57 PM
#28
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4101 | Subs: 1



AGrens closing on rifles in cover, from max range, will lose every time - and will often lose enough models while closing that they'll be forced to retreat before they do any significant damage (if any). Meanwhile, the rifles in cover won't be suppressed by the MG, due to the suppression reduction from being in cover.


i want a solution that doesn't involve making use of core game features god damn it!
26 May 2020, 22:05 PM
#29
avatar of elchino7
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Posts: 7208 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 May 2020, 21:29 PMVipper

I did not post that grenadiers are bad, actually I posted something completely different, this is what I wrote:
"Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power"

Ostheer are good at defending and the smaller the area they have to defend the easier it get to defend it.


The problem has to do with how bad are grenadier at attacking, so people prefer going to AsG or Ostruppen that at least allow map control.


If that was the case the would relay at grenadier in tournaments yet as far as I know AsG and Ostru are very common in tournament also. Playing with stock Ostheer units one lucks the pushing power until T4 and even then he might be straggling.


Not sure how you interpret that.

T2 push is a thing, same when they are able to get a fast Ostwind or once the PIV arrives. IF you don't like doctrinal commander, you go with the Pio transition into T2.
Grenadier spam with no follow up is bad in attacking because you are trying to assault and match 1on1 against units which are more expensive and better at that role. The moment you mix up MGs or sniper or you are able to transition into G43/Assault Leader it completely changes the dynamic.

27 May 2020, 04:56 AM
#30
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

please nerf assgren to not have 6 man upgrade.

Ost is spamming mg42 - assgren/assgren sniper - pak40 - scout ht - p4+ - 6man ass - brumbar/warfer - tiger.

Op af strat
You need a t70 rush to stop assgren spammers
27 May 2020, 06:50 AM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8566 | Subs: 1


Not sure how you interpret that.

T2 push is a thing, same when they are able to get a fast Ostwind or once the PIV arrives. IF you don't like doctrinal commander, you go with the Pio transition into T2.
Grenadier spam with no follow up is bad in attacking because you are trying to assault and match 1on1 against units which are more expensive and better at that role. The moment you mix up MGs or sniper or you are able to transition into G43/Assault Leader it completely changes the dynamic.


It seems you agree with me that Stock grenadier are bad at attacking and that is part of the reason why AsG and Ostru are used.
27 May 2020, 07:21 AM
#32
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

oh the doctrine gives you OP tiger ace. not just a regular tiger.
so a vet P4 + tiger Ace + 6 men assgren with forward recon/reinforce.

You just need to do a double paks build + pwafer for rocket arty if need.

nerf bat plz
27 May 2020, 08:21 AM
#33
avatar of elchino7
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jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2020, 06:50 AMVipper

It seems you agree with me that Stock grenadier are bad at attacking and that is part of the reason why AsG and Ostru are used.


No. I'll have to explain cause you just want a simplistic generalisation as saying "Gren bad on attack".
It seems to me you are avoiding topics you don't like to answer to. Simple questions:

1-Do you think stock grenadiers are fine for anything other than 1v1?
2-Have you check how people are playing with OH through the 2v2 tournament?

On 1v1:

Let's start by realising the greatest strength for OH on 1v1 is the T2 timing.
Against Soviets, Grenadiers stock can match any stock Soviet opening. But why go even if you can pull ahead with doctrinal infantry openings or gamble for a fast T2.
Against UKF/USF you can't match 1on1 squads and rather than sitting and playing a long extended T1 opening like old days (3/4 Grens, snipers, MG42) you do the same as with Soviets going for doctrinal opening and transitioning to T2.

Osstruppen are not good at attacking, but they will force you to take some time to dislodge them and either you spread your forces or you will be losing map control. In spreading you can use PG/222/FHT to attack lone squads.

Grenadiers can push/attack fine, but not doing so in a way that they won't lose map control or spending resources which are better spent at that point in the game on other things (medic, teller, FHT, etc.)
27 May 2020, 09:21 AM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8566 | Subs: 1



No. I'll have to explain cause you just want a simplistic generalisation as saying "Gren bad on attack".
It seems to me you are avoiding topics you don't like to answer to. Simple questions:

1-Do you think stock grenadiers are fine for anything other than 1v1?
2-Have you check how people are playing with OH through the 2v2 tournament?

On 1v1:

Let's start by realising the greatest strength for OH on 1v1 is the T2 timing.
Against Soviets, Grenadiers stock can match any stock Soviet opening. But why go even if you can pull ahead with doctrinal infantry openings or gamble for a fast T2.
Against UKF/USF you can't match 1on1 squads and rather than sitting and playing a long extended T1 opening like old days (3/4 Grens, snipers, MG42) you do the same as with Soviets going for doctrinal opening and transitioning to T2.

Osstruppen are not good at attacking, but they will force you to take some time to dislodge them and either you spread your forces or you will be losing map control. In spreading you can use PG/222/FHT to attack lone squads.

Grenadiers can push/attack fine, but not doing so in a way that they won't lose map control or spending resources which are better spent at that point in the game on other things (medic, teller, FHT, etc.)

1) Grenadiers are fine at defending, they are not fine at attacking. That is not simplistic generalization it a result of the fact that they 4 entities, low DPS on them move, high reinforcement cost....

2) I have not seen all the 2vs2 games
(finals:
ashablois goes sniper/gren/gren/gren they lose the game
refero goes gren/sniper/gren/gren game won
ashablois goes gren/gren/gren/mortar game won)

27 May 2020, 11:00 AM
#35
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4101 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 May 2020, 04:56 AMmrgame2
please nerf assgren to not have 6 man upgrade.

Ost is spamming mg42 - assgren/assgren sniper - pak40 - scout ht - p4+ - 6man ass - brumbar/warfer - tiger.

Op af strat
You need a t70 rush to stop assgren spammers

Wait.... So the issue is the ost player is using a combination of doctrinal and stock units to bring a well rounded army composition and using combined arms to cover all threats os OP?
27 May 2020, 15:08 PM
#36
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1036

Huh, this thread blew up.

Ironically, stock Grens have lately given me more problems than Assgrens since I now go into a game expecting to face assault grenadiers.

Map type appear to have a lot to do with it as well. The bigger the map the easier time I have. Maps that have easily defended cut-offs tend to give me a bad day - that and my micro still being garbage.
27 May 2020, 21:06 PM
#37
avatar of elchino7
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Posts: 7208 | Subs: 1

Huh, this thread blew up.

Ironically, stock Grens have lately given me more problems than Assgrens since I now go into a game expecting to face assault grenadiers.

Map type appear to have a lot to do with it as well. The bigger the map the easier time I have. Maps that have easily defended cut-offs tend to give me a bad day - that and my micro still being garbage.


Check commander loadout.

And be ready to adapt and change playtsyle according to what you see.

Gren + MG42
Only Grens
Pios + MG42 > fast PG
Gren + 1 AG
AG
Osstruppen
27 May 2020, 21:41 PM
#38
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1493

Not surprised at all the crying here in the thread about Ost build orders. Ost players are constantly trying to avoid using stock 4man grens, BECAUSE THEY ARE GARBAGE. ALL THREE allied mainlines received buffs quite recently. Grens received nothing for a long time. Hence the agren/ostruppen builds. Now, again, not surprisingly, whatever is a popular build for Ost is apparently OP. Original poster somehow doesn't understand that it is generally a nerf if Ost is forced into using a heavy doctrinal build strat, not because agren or ostruppen are OP but because there are ZERO advantages of going for mg+3gren builds. agren/ostruppen builds take much more skill to execute, but for the highly skilled, it is worth it.

So if you struggle against agren/ostruppen builds, it's purely a L2P issue. And, I must say, a well played Ostruppen build is even more devastating than an agren build since agren builds have bigger weaknesses, where Ostruppen weakness can be quickly plugged up by fast arriving pgrens.
27 May 2020, 22:27 PM
#40
avatar of Sp33dSnake

Posts: 68

Ass Grens got a buff because Soviets were using M3/Penal Spam. Grens could faust the M3's, but not beat Penals, and since they used their munis on Fausts, no LMG42 to try to upgrade to beat Penals.

Honestly, although Grens get the non doctrinal LMG42, they are the worst scaling mainline infantry in the game, currently. Conscripts get 7 man and doctrinal Ppsh's, Americans get Double BARs/1919/Zooks, Brits can double Bren and beat Grens handily without the 5 man upgrade.

Ostruppen are used because of their low cost/low reinforcement, 5 man unit and saving for PG's.

Even doctrinal upgrades like JLI package, its timing cannot hope to compete with a Allied infantry with vet and one upgraded weapon.

Grens need to be 260, have a 60 muni upgrade for an STG 44, and be better Volks.

Still might not be enough for a 4 man unit, imo.

The doctrinal 5 man upgrade makes Grens better, way better. But again, it's locked behind a doctrine. The Jaeger Command Squad is 5 man, and performs well.
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