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Vote for: Perimeter Overwatch Change

18 May 2020, 23:07 PM
#41
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2020, 19:44 PMKatitof

It would also remove the point of the ability, there would be no reason what so ever over using any other offmap.


No it wouldn't, vision is not the point of the ability. Vision is the point of early warning flares, which is on the same commander

All other abilities that do the targeting for you do not spot for themselves
19 May 2020, 00:53 AM
#42
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2020, 20:12 PMVipper

Yes and an ability that fires howitzers on enemy artillery fits the commander perfectly.


Once they fix the range problem on Counter Battery, as it only shoots out to 250. if the leFH can't shoot your base, you can't shoot it. Also, it will need a special high accuracy version to actually hit the artillery its shooting at.
19 May 2020, 00:54 AM
#43
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486



No it wouldn't, vision is not the point of the ability. Vision is the point of early warning flares, which is on the same commander

All other abilities that do the targeting for you do not spot for themselves


Early Warning Flares are another problematic ability. Massive uncounterable vision, but uncontrollable where it goes. it feels bad for both sides.
19 May 2020, 00:57 AM
#44
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

Can you add just fixing vision? that is the most problematic as it prevents the usual counter play for targeted artillery call-ins.
19 May 2020, 01:00 AM
#45
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3318 | Subs: 1



Early Warning Flares are another problematic ability. Massive uncounterable vision, but uncontrollable where it goes. it feels bad for both sides.


I agree, I wasn't saying their okay. Just that the the point of that ability is reconnaissance
19 May 2020, 01:04 AM
#46
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486



I agree, I wasn't saying their okay. Just that the the point of that ability is reconnaissance


Yep.
19 May 2020, 07:28 AM
#47
avatar of SgtJonson

Posts: 143



Early Warning Flares are another problematic ability. Massive uncounterable vision, but uncontrollable where it goes. it feels bad for both sides.


I just wanted to leave this here. I know it´s a little oftopic.


19 May 2020, 08:22 AM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Once they fix the range problem on Counter Battery, as it only shoots out to 250. if the leFH can't shoot your base, you can't shoot it. Also, it will need a special high accuracy version to actually hit the artillery its shooting at.

The ability does not need to be stronger. A one click counter to Lefh costing 30 munition would simply be OP, especially with little counter play.
19 May 2020, 08:39 AM
#49
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1186

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 08:22 AMVipper

The ability does not need to be stronger. A one click counter to Lefh costing 30 munition would simply be OP, especially with little counter play.


But it is close to useless as it is now, in team game. Like in red ball, counter battery cant event reach the front line. It is a badly design ability in a badly design Commander, which is leftover from a badly design faction, which either should get a major revamp or left dead.

Put CB in royal artillery regimen without reworking is as like remove an ability from from Commander. The Commander itself is not event hard counter LEFH spam.
19 May 2020, 08:42 AM
#50
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



But it is close to useless as it is now, in team game. Like in red ball, counter battery cant event reach the front line. It is a badly design ability in a badly design Commander, which is leftover from a badly design faction, which either should get a major revamp or left dead.

Put CB in royal artillery regimen without reworking is as like remove an ability from from Commander. The Commander itself is not event hard counter LEFH spam.

This is about perimeter over-watch so I will not go into the commander. If you want to debate how good the Ro. Artyllery commander is you probably need to start another thread.
19 May 2020, 08:52 AM
#51
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1186

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 08:42 AMVipper

This is about perimeter over-watch so I will not go into the commander. If you want to debate how good the Ro. Artyllery commander is you probably need to start another thread.


You was suggesting replace PO with CB, my point is it is not that of a good way. Instead of 1, now we have at leat 2 ability that need to be worked on. Not to mention the 2 commanders will also need to be tweak. Like, how to make CB useful, where will PO go, or what to do with emplacements regimen ?

19 May 2020, 09:12 AM
#52
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



You was suggesting replace PO with CB, my point is it is not that of a good way. Instead of 1, now we have at leat 2 ability that need to be worked on. Not to mention the 2 commanders will also need to be tweak. Like, how to make CB useful, where will PO go, or what to do with emplacements regimen ?


Perimeter Over needs a rework and that is that is point of this thread.

So does the Emplacement commander. So it is not me who creates this, the problems are there.

The Ro. Artillery commander can simply deliver too much volume of fire.
19 May 2020, 11:34 AM
#53
avatar of YRon²y

Posts: 214



Well Tightrope used it incorrectly because none of his base buildings are set up, meaning none of the howitzers participated in barraging the enemy.

Here you see the full effect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDf6SDp1uX0

2 base howi's firing + occassional offmap mortar shells + occassional offmap howi shells.


Thx for pointing that out. I actually tested it myself but did the same mistake as tightrope.

Maybe a fix is to not make the howitzers fire. That way it seems alot more balanced
19 May 2020, 16:30 PM
#54
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 08:22 AMVipper

The ability does not need to be stronger. A one click counter to Lefh costing 30 munition would simply be OP, especially with little counter play.


Firstly a few things you have got wrong.

There is counterplay due to how the guns operate, they will target the unit barraging closest. So by using a dummy mortar you can shield any howitzer behind it.

One howitzer 30muni barrage even in range will not reliably kill or decrew a lefh. You need two howitzers for good odds to decrew so 60muni + not bring able to build units. Then the axis can return and repair/recrew.

Axis howitzers can already counter barrage at vet1, it's not op

Brit counter battery can already target howitzers on most 1vs1 maps and even small 2vs2 maps. It's not OP

Yet in 4vs4 it can't hit leigs in the middle of some maps like steppes... It needs a range buff

19 May 2020, 16:56 PM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



Firstly a few things you have got wrong.

I did not get anything wrong, the only thing wrong here is your ability to read.


There is counterplay due to how the guns operate, they will target the unit barraging closest. So by using a dummy mortar you can shield any howitzer behind it.

I guess that in your opinion there is also the same counter play to Lefh counter barrage.
Main difference here is that Lefh can be destroyed and base guns can not (well they can but they can be repaired.)


One howitzer 30muni barrage even in range will not reliably kill or decrew a lefh. You need two howitzers for good odds to decrew so 60muni + not bring able to build units. Then the axis can return and repair/recrew.

Never claimed one howitzer will counter LeFH. Read more carefully I was responding to the suggestions to buff the counter barrage ability and pointed at that if counter barrage could hard counter an LeFH it would be OP for 30 munition.


Axis howitzers can already counter barrage at vet1, it's not op

You will have to argue that with people that claim LeFH counter barrage is OP.
Main difference here is that counter barrage requires a LeFH vet 1 that comes after CP 8 while counter barrage is CP 4 (if I remember correctly) and the gun can not be destroyed.


Brit counter battery can already target howitzers on most 1vs1 maps and even small 2vs2 maps. It's not OP

Yet in 4vs4 it can't hit leigs in the middle of some maps like steppes... It needs a range buff

I did not claim that the ability is OP, other simply argued that it needs buffs.

Now can you pls return to the topic which is perimeter over-watch?
19 May 2020, 17:17 PM
#56
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 16:56 PMVipper

I did not get anything wrong, the only thing wrong here is your ability to read.


I guess that in your opinion there is also the same counter play to Lefh counter barrage.
Main difference here is that Lefh can be destroyed and base guns can not (well they can but they can be repaired.)


Never claimed one howitzer will counter LeFH. Read more carefully I was responding to the suggestions to buff the counter barrage ability and pointed at that if counter barrage could hard counter an LeFH it would be OP for 30 munition.


You will have to argue that with people that claim LeFH counter barrage is OP.
Main difference here is that counter barrage requires a LeFH vet 1 that comes after CP 8 while counter barrage is CP 4 (if I remember correctly) and the gun can not be destroyed.


I did not claim that the ability is OP, other simply argued that it needs buffs.

Now can you pls return to the topic which is perimeter over-watch?


You literally typed brit CB will become a 30muni howitzer counter if the range is buffed.

That is exactly what you just typed because my quote includes what you claimed. You can't back peddle out of what people can clearly read.

I provided reasons to why what you typed is incorrect. It's quite simple.

But I'm more interested into why you think CB shooting at a lefh in 1vs1 is fine but CB not being able to shoot at a mortar in the middle of steppes due to lack of range is good design. I'm not confident you'll be able to read this point, understand it and present your counter argument to why this is apparently fine though.


19 May 2020, 17:39 PM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12979 | Subs: 1



You literally typed brit CB will become a 30muni howitzer counter if the range is buffed.

That is exactly what you just typed because my quote includes what you claimed. You can't back peddle out of what people can clearly read.

I provided reasons to why what you typed is incorrect. It's quite simple.

But I'm more interested into why you think CB shooting at a lefh in 1vs1 is fine but CB not being able to shoot at a mortar in the middle of steppes due to lack of range is good design. I'm not confident you'll be able to read this point, understand it and present your counter argument to why this is apparently fine though.

So you are determined to derail a thread because you want to prove wrong although you have trouble reading and understating.

You did not provide reason why what I posted was wrong. You started a list of what in you opinion I "got wrong" on how counter barrage actually works and no amount of spin will change that.

The suggestion was:

Once they fix the range problem on Counter Battery, as it only shoots out to 250. if the leFH can't shoot your base, you can't shoot it. Also, it will need a special high accuracy version to actually hit the artillery its shooting at.


Which means increase both range and increase that accuracy so that that counter barrage hit the LeFH.

To be clear I will repeat what I have posted since you seem to have trouble understanding, it is my opinion that a 30 munition hard counter to LeFH and counter barrage with extra range and high accuracy will be OP.

You are entitled to think it would not be.
19 May 2020, 17:43 PM
#58
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 17:39 PMVipper

So you are determined to derail a thread because you want to prove wrong although you have trouble reading and understating.

You did not provide reason why what I posted was wrong. You started a list in what you opinion I "got wrong" on how counter barrage actually works and no amount of spin will change that.

The suggestion was:


Which means increase both range and increase that accuracy so that that counter barrage hit the LeFH.

To be clear I will repeat what I have posted since you seem to have trouble understanding in my opinion a 30 munition hard counter to LeFH with extra range and high accuracy will be OP.

You are entitled to think it would not be.


It's not derailing a thread if it is a viable option for replacing Perimeter Overwatch. Which it very much may be, just needs viable range and its accuracy reviewed (I was over zealous calling for outright accuracy buffs).
19 May 2020, 17:53 PM
#60
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 486

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 17:44 PMVipper

The derail is not because we debating "counter barrage" in thread about "perimeter over-watch" but because the main reason of SuperHansFan post has nothing to the ability but with eagerness to prove me wrong.


On topic, does both Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery (the closest other) target all enemies in all sectors with independent off-maps? I keep seeing single unit tests, but I seem to remember Perimeter Overwatch just dumps on 1 target per sector in the re-work patch notes. This makes it a lot more weak sauce vs large balls where the base howitzers aren't forcing off. Also, it is weak sauce vs armor (again, as long as one doesn't sit in the base artillery barrage).

It doesn't stop armor trains very well.

I'll get back with test results.
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