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russian armor

How to reducing USF's reliance on Jackson

28 Feb 2020, 08:24 AM
#1
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

Jackson is very strong, but the USF has no choice but Jackson
If Jackson is nerfed, the USF faction itself can fall
So we need to give the USF new options and nerf Jackson


1. Make Wolverine a non-doctrine unit and buff it

Put Wolverine in Major Tier

M10 Hp 560 ->640, cost : 300/80 -> 320/95
Mid/Far penetration : 160/140 -> 165/150
add sight +5 in vet 1
add penetration +20% in vet 3
Increase veterancy requirement bit more

Wolverine is a very undervalued unit and needs to be changed to make it more useful
Wolverine will be able to buff performance to make it a more firm In-fighter

The British Lend lease Regiment Wolverine should also make the same changes to have a firmer position within the British faction



2. Add one more premium tier to USF

Add a new tier similar to OST T4

"Armored power reinforcement" - 200mp 35fuel, build time 50s

Pershing needs this upgrade to be call-in

Unlock bulldozer upgrade and Jackson


M4A3 75mm sherman can equip dozer and 105mm cannon

- 100/30 cost, increase dozer front armor 200->230

Remove +160 HP in vet 2 and buff HP 720->800 (Total 880 ->800 HP)


M36 jackson

- Hp 640->560, cost : 400/145 -> 360/140
front armor : 130->120
reload time : 4.375~4.975 -> 5.7~6.5
HVAP reloading time is unchanged
add sight +5 in vet 1

You can build scott, 75mm sherman, M10 in Major tier
Jackson and 105mm bulldozer upgrade will be available after the "Armored power reinforcement" upgrade


3, Merge M4A3 76mm sherman and Ez8
Cost : 380/135
cannon stat and reload time is same as 76mm sherman
Mobility and Veterancy is same as 76mm sherman
HP and armor is same as Ez8
Can swap HVAP round


4. Change the Commander's Armored vehicle call-in

Armor company - 105mm bulldozer, wolverin -> M8 greyhound, Pershing

Mechanized company - reserve Armor -> Ez8


<Identity of units and commanders>

M10 wolverin - In-fighter TD,
But it's still not enough to deal with German Heavy armor, and USF users will have to choose between using multiple wolverines or Jackson.

M36 Jackson - Out-fighter TD, delay the production timing for strong performance
Increased reload time and nerfed HP make Jackson more vulnerable to flanking but still good for German Heavy armor
HVAP can shoot slightly faster than the changed default reload time by not changing the HVAP reload time


105mm bulldozer - non doctrinal late game tanker unit, same role as Brumbar
You must have 75mm Sherman to use this unit

Ez8 - Enhanced Multi-role MBT
Versatile tanks that can be used without upgrading "armored power reinforcement"
Swapping rounds allows both AI and AT capabilities to be more flexible and more tanky than 75mm sherman
(I think OKW Pz4J's cost should be reduced 380/140->350/135)

Armor Company
- Beginners who bought the game for the first time can use Pershing and M8 greyhound without Commander dlc
Add option for USF users to use Pershing and M8
ass engi + Pershing + off-map arty

Mechanized Company
- Ez8 + combined arms

Urban assault Company
- cheap dozer blade(50/20) for 75mm sherman + white phosphorus shell + calliope

Heavy cavalry Company
- Ranger + Pershing + combined arms

Rifle Company
- Enhanced Rifleman and flamethrower rears + Ez8


28 Feb 2020, 08:35 AM
#2
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2278

No.
Simply no because you don't need to buff everything else usf has that has tracks to make jackson a little worse stats wise.
Don't suggest to mix commander abilities without a reason

I said countless times to make m10 a stock option, that paired with the jackson stats chance into heavy only TD is something I can agree with.
28 Feb 2020, 08:37 AM
#3
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788

No.
Simply no because you don't need to buff everything else usf has that has tracks to make jackson a little worse stats wise.
Don't suggest to mix commander abilities without a reason

I said countless times to make m10 a stock option, that paired with the jackson stats chance into heavy only TD is something I can agree with.



If no other option is more attractive than using Jackson, USF users will continue to use Jackson only
28 Feb 2020, 08:41 AM
#5
avatar of SneakEye
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 577 | Subs: 3

A member of the patchteam stated that they avoid complex changes and want minimal risk. This amount of changes is complex and introduces quite a bit of risk. I'd recommend to propose much simpler/smaller changes if you want the patchteam to consider your idea.
28 Feb 2020, 08:41 AM
#6
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2278

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 08:37 AMblancat



If no other option is more attractive than using Jackson, USF users will continue to use Jackson only

In your own words, how would you describe a more appealing tank than the jackson?

It's the golden standard of AT TD, there is nothing better than it, can we agree on that?
28 Feb 2020, 08:48 AM
#7
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 897

Way too complicated of an implementation, as SneakEye said; but the 'idea' is solid.

I pointed this out a while ago in my "Give USF an Intermediate AT" thread


Essentially, as you pointed out, the m36 currently needs to 'do everything', which is completely unreasonable; this is because without Vet, USF has trouble reliably penning anything tougher than a STuG.

It also creates the current situation, where simply rushing an M36 is the best choice in almost all cases. Instead, the M36 needs to become a dedicated "anti-heavy" tank, and some other unit needs to become a dedicated "anti-medium" tank; similar to OST's STuG/Panther, OKW's JP4/Panther, and Sov's SU76(and T34)/Su85 combo (or, how the Panther should be).

As for the stats, in no way should the M10 be buffed; its currently an incredibly strong medium TD, thanks to its abilities. If anything, it would almost certaintly need to be nerfed from its current state, if moved to a non-doc position. 'CreativeName' was correct in pointing this out a while ago, in this post; I too thought that the M10 would be fine if simply dropped in to the current tech structure.
28 Feb 2020, 08:50 AM
#8
avatar of blancat

Posts: 788


In your own words, how would you describe a more appealing tank than the jackson?

It's the golden standard of AT TD, there is nothing better than it, can we agree on that?


So I nerf Jackson's performance and delayed the timing of jackson's appearance

Jackson appeared too fast for high performance, so it was a problem to counter all German tanks.

Is it a good thing that only Jackson is used without the chance of other armored vehicles being used?

Is the armor company currently worth using?

Why is there only one commander who can use heavy tanks only in the USF?
28 Feb 2020, 09:14 AM
#9
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 430

One way could be to introduce second snti tank oriented vehicle to major tech. Id say sherman 76 could be decent candidate, as you could take off some aspects from jackson and put it on 76. Jackson would be fragile and slow firing but long ranged td, while 76 would be faster firing, more durable alternative, with greatly lesser range. You wouldnt have anymore jackson holding all the pros and at the same time 76 could see better function as something else than just slightly diffirent stock sherman.
28 Feb 2020, 09:16 AM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 08:24 AMblancat
Jackson is very strong, but the USF has no choice but Jackson
If Jackson is nerfed, the USF faction itself can fall
So we need to give the USF new options and nerf Jackson
...

This is a just hypothesis, so one can simply nerf the M36 especially its 60 range performance and see what happens.

The majority of USF doctrinal units are excellent but they see little action and a contributing factor is because the M4A3 Sherman+M36 combo is simply too cost efficient.

105mm Bulldozer Sherman (380/140) is at least as cost efficient if not more than the more expensive Brumbar (400/150)

M4A3 dozer upgraded (390/130), M4A3(76) Sherman (380/125), Sherman Easy8 (380/140) are all more cost efficient than Ostheer PzIV J (380/140)

And the M10 is great with abilities available to it.

USF vehicles hardly need any buffs.

If there is Ostheer T3 units become too dominant vs USF and that is a big if, other option should explored.

That is why I suggested making the stock Sherman better vs PvIV (while removing the HE to open the way for doctrinal units) and nerfing M36 vs PzIV.
28 Feb 2020, 09:55 AM
#11
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

A member of the patchteam stated that they avoid complex changes and want minimal risk. This amount of changes is complex and introduces quite a bit of risk. I'd recommend to propose much simpler/smaller changes if you want the patchteam to consider your idea.


The simple change I have in mind:

Sherman M4A3 with a new upgrade for a certain amount of munition. Locks out AI mode and increase the penetration of AT mode so it can deal reliably with Pz4s (with skirts).

Obviously this would make Sherman 76 and Ez8 redundant in their current version but with the appropriate nerf to Jackson so it can't trade off anymore with mediums so easily there is maybe some other space for them to fulfill.

Edit:

Ez8 could become a Pershing alike but dedicated to AT or a panther version for USF, limited to one at time
Sherman 76, no idea yet.
28 Feb 2020, 11:02 AM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 09:55 AMEsxile


The simple change I have in mind:

Sherman M4A3 with a new upgrade for a certain amount of munition. Locks out AI mode and increase the penetration of AT mode so it can deal reliably with Pz4s (with skirts).

Obviously this would make Sherman 76 and Ez8 redundant in their current version but with the appropriate nerf to Jackson so it can't trade off anymore with mediums so easily there is maybe some other space for them to fulfill.

Edit:

Ez8 could become a Pershing alike but dedicated to AT or a panther version for USF, limited to one at time
Sherman 76, no idea yet.

In other words a M4A3 Sherman should obliterate infatry and when the enemy builds a 380/140 Panzer J the 340/110 M4A3 Sherman should be able to spend some munition and "deal reliably" with that more expansive PzIV.

And since this road with make other version of Sherman redundant we should then buff them even more...

Nope that does not sound as a good idea...
28 Feb 2020, 11:06 AM
#13
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 08:50 AMblancat
Is the armor company currently worth using?


1) Assault Engineers are currently bugged and their Received Accuracy does not go down to 0.9 at vet 1. This is getting fixed.

2) The Jackson is too dominant agianst mediums and Tigers are meta, so there’s no medium tank play for the M10 to contribute against. This should improve with the Tiger nerfs and could further improve if the Jackson loses rate of fire and gets more penetration to become more anti-heavy oriented.
28 Feb 2020, 11:08 AM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1



1) Assault Engineers are currently bugged and their Received Accuracy does not go down to 0.9 at vet 1. This is getting fixed.

2) The Jackson is too dominant agianst mediums and Tigers are meta, so there’s no medium tank play for the M10 to contribute against. This should improve with the Tiger nerfs and could further improve if the Jackson loses rate of fire and gets more penetration to become more anti-heavy oriented.

Do you have any idea what Penetration the M36 has at vet 3?
28 Feb 2020, 11:10 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15221 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:08 AMVipper

Do you have any idea what Penetration the M36 has at vet 3?

Irrelevant to his argument.
Check JT penetration to get the point.
28 Feb 2020, 11:12 AM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:10 AMKatitof

Irrelevant to his argument.
Check JT penetration to get the point.

Let just make this clear does in your opinion the M36 need mores penetration even if its ROF is lowered? and if does pls let as know what are the appropriate values.
28 Feb 2020, 11:17 AM
#17
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2636

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:12 AMVipper

Let just make this clear does in your opinion the M36 need mores penetration even if its ROF is lowered? and if does pls let as know what are the appropriate values.


If you give it more penetration and lower rate of fire it improves against heavies and becomes worse vs mediums, which dramaticlaly improves the situation since it’s less oppressive vs medium tank play and improves usf in teamgames vs Elephant/Jagdtiger.
28 Feb 2020, 11:17 AM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15221 | Subs: 7

In my opinion, if AT unit is losing RoF, it SHOULD get pen up to offset possible misses with lower RoF.
If it got say extra 2 sec to RoF, it should pretty much be guaranteed to pen KT at vet3 at max range.
28 Feb 2020, 11:41 AM
#19
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8290 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:17 AMKatitof
In my opinion, if AT unit is losing RoF, it SHOULD get pen up to offset possible misses with lower RoF.

COH2 basics:
Misses are affected by accuracy not penetration

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:17 AMKatitof

If it got say extra 2 sec to RoF, it should pretty much be guaranteed to pen KT at vet3 at max range.

I can not even start to explain how silly that suggestion is.
28 Feb 2020, 11:43 AM
#20
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2825 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2020, 11:02 AMVipper

In other words a M4A3 Sherman should obliterate infatry and when the enemy builds a 380/140 Panzer J the 340/110 M4A3 Sherman should be able to spend some munition and "deal reliably" with that more expansive PzIV.

And since this road with make other version of Sherman redundant we should then buff them even more...

Nope that does not sound as a good idea...


Well you know Pz4s are already obliterating infantry AND dealing USF sherman at the same time. What I propose is one OR the other with an upgrade. Now if it requires a fuel price increase or the upgrade being a spit fuel/munition, so be it. I haven't even say the sherman should be better than the Pz4, just at the same level when it get skirts so it can fight the OKW version reliably.

I don't see the Ez8 proposal being a straight buff, you get a one unit limited that can't be mixed with other pershing or Calliope and it would have similar characteristic with the panther.

Then in exchange, the M36 is nerfed so it is only relevant vs panthers and heaviest units.
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