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russian armor

Pwerfer on T3

27 Feb 2020, 15:36 PM
#41
avatar of Princeps

Posts: 214

No.
This is a retarded idea honestly, it adds nothing and would just turn into ostheer domination because they can get one out at 13 min no problem.


It would delay the P4 and give u instead a fragile inf blobb counter.
This would make u vulnerable to early Tanks.
27 Feb 2020, 15:46 PM
#42
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

No.
This is a retarded idea honestly, it adds nothing and would just turn into ostheer domination because they can get one out at 13 min no problem.

As I said feel free to discuss and disagree, thanks for calling me a retarded.
I doubt it adds nothing since ost mid game is very stale right now, more so in team games. Pz4 is hardly a crutch unit against well supported team weapons and all allied factions meta have been turning into tw rather mainline powerhouse.

I think you didn't evaluate my motives well enough to know why I raised the idea in the first place.

Finally is not possible to rush pwerfer as many paranoid people have stated. A single t70, aec or stuart will drive easily into a solo pwerfer. Grens are weak enough against the rest of the allied counterparts and a breakthrough is possible.
27 Feb 2020, 16:15 PM
#43
avatar of Kubelecer

Posts: 403


False.
OKW can get a Wstuka faster than OST even if pwerfer its in T3. OST teching is simply more expensive and takes even more time.

SWS (15)+ Mechanized (45) + WStuka (100) = 160Fu

BP1 (40) + BP2 (90) + T3(15) + PWerfer (85) = 250 Fu

And OST didnt build neither T1 nor T2 wich is pretty dumb. 222/250/251 or 250MHT are common sight on OST.


False.
How is 40+90+15+85 = 250?
Can you read? Or are you pretending to strawman?

As I said, noone rushes mechanical into stuka, that's asking to lose.

SWS (15) + Mechanized (45) + Luchs (60) (+ Puma (70)) + Stuka (100) = 220 fuel (290 fuel)

This build is really bad and you probably had no fuel all game if you didn't even get a t4 before stuka, so the stuka will either barely keep you in the game or you will still lose.

Assuming you are hellbent on rushing stuka and will rely on raketen and mines for AT:

SWS (15) + Mechanized (45) + Luchs (60) + SWS (15) + Schwerer (60) + Panz auth (60) + Stuka (100) = 335 Fuel (275 without luchs) (345 if you went puma instead of luchs)


Realistic pwerfer rush = BP1 (40) + T2 (20) + (probably a 222/251) (30) + BP2(90) + T3(15) + werfer (85) = 280 fuel. (250 without 30 fuel LV) (+ 10 Fuel for T1)

27 Feb 2020, 16:29 PM
#44
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

My bad I wad wrong, it is not 250 but 230, for still as you said yourself, no one rushes atika, why would they rush pwerfer.

If okw suffers from the lack of fuel, ost would a well, because it's techs are delayed.

Okw stuka build don't need swererpanzerHQ nor its authorization
27 Feb 2020, 16:42 PM
#45
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



It would delay the P4 and give u instead a fragile inf blobb counter.
This would make u vulnerable to early Tanks.


Mobile Defense says “hello again”.



Pz4 is hardly a crutch unit against well supported team weapons and all allied factions meta have been turning into tw rather mainline powerhouse.


It very much is the absolute workhorse Ostheer unit. A good flank with a p4 and a Pgren (or P4s and Pgrens) wrecks static play. I literally do that every single 1v1 as Ostheer, every single game, they camp with MGs and AT guns, then my P4 and G43 Pgrens pull off a good flank and it’s ggwp I get get free teamweapons.
27 Feb 2020, 16:50 PM
#46
avatar of Kubelecer

Posts: 403

My bad I wad wrong, it is not 250 but 230, for still as you said yourself, no one rushes atika, why would they rush pwerfer.

If okw suffers from the lack of fuel, ost would a well, because it's techs are delayed.

Okw stuka build don't need swererpanzerHQ nor its authorization


Did you know your T4 can lock down several points and secure you resource income for your stuka? It will also protect your stuka later against dives.

Did you know your T4 unlocks Obers that you probably need since you were probably losing mid game because u had nothing to contest infantry and LVs with except volks?

Did you know Ost as a faction has way better tools to support a pwerfer rush since they have linear tech and better team weapons and would get werfer in the same building they get Stugs and p4s compared to OKW that is forced to miss out on non ammo healing by going mechanical to even unlock stukas?
27 Feb 2020, 16:50 PM
#47
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Indeed a flanking maneuver is the correct approach, but on some maps it's a very risky or indirect solution. Imagine being in the middle of a 3v3, you should flank between two skilled players with their snares. Unless the rest of the teammates push at the same moment that pz4 is dead krupp stahl
27 Feb 2020, 17:00 PM
#48
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Why would this make any sense? I am confused.
27 Feb 2020, 17:09 PM
#49
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



Did you know your T4 can lock down several points and secure you resource income for your stuka? It will also protect your stuka later against dives.

Did you know your T4 unlocks Obers that you probably need since you were probably losing mid game because u had nothing to contest infantry and LVs with except volks?

Did you know Ost as a faction has way better tools to support a pwerfer rush since they have linear tech and better team weapons and would get werfer in the same building they get Stugs and p4s compared to OKW that is forced to miss out on non ammo healing by going mechanical to even unlock stukas?

Did you know that static gameplay of OST is harly viable now? Every allied faction has had indirect fire buffs, doctrinal infantries buffs ment to circumvent the MG42s, better adaptability overall for new flanking strategies? The frontline contest is no longer 1 sided towards the axis. They all overlooked the OST TW to the point we have to discuss this kind of topics

A OKW T4 is a safe bet, maybe but not a comparable situation. You brought up the fastest pwerfer possible, i answered with a COMPARABLE OKW performance. And you didnt even mentioned other playstyle apart from the always repeated OKW build. No risk no rewards...
27 Feb 2020, 17:22 PM
#50
avatar of ZeroZeroNi

Posts: 1563

I mean if the ostwind would be buffed to say 720 hp might be acceptable.
27 Feb 2020, 17:26 PM
#51
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 784

I mean if the ostwind would be buffed to say 720 hp might be acceptable.


No way lmao. It's already tough enough to kill with it's speed and firepower vs ATG/infantry AT.
27 Feb 2020, 17:34 PM
#52
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

i answered with a COMPARABLE OKW performance.


How is that relevant? Stuka zu fuβ is locked behind Mech HQ which is expensive, locks out healing, and only has a light tank and a light TD alongside it. This proposal would put the panzerwerfer in a cheap tier with a great generalist medium tank and a great medium TD.
27 Feb 2020, 18:12 PM
#53
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Dejavu, i've seen this suggestion before.



As in the past, i don't think it will prosper at all. There are enough cons to offset any pros the idea might bring.
27 Feb 2020, 19:50 PM
#54
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392



How is that relevant? Stuka zu fuβ is locked behind Mech HQ which is expensive, locks out healing, and only has a light tank and a light TD alongside it. This proposal would put the panzerwerfer in a cheap tier with a great generalist medium tank and a great medium TD.


If you want to write in German, then us the correct Eszett "ß" and not greek beta, also Substantivschreibung would be great. :clap:

If we really want to fix Ostheer, then there has to be changed more in the line-up. But Panzerwerfer in T3 would be good. Also the tech system of Ostheer should be changed, also units like StuG E should become non-doc and Brummbär could become an exclusive call-in as buffed version.

T0 Pio, Gren | locked behind T2 tech: Panzergrenadiere
T1 HMG42, Mörser, Scharfschütze
T2 PaK40, 222, 251 | locked behind T3 tech: StuG E
T3 StuG G, Panzer 4 | locked behind T4 tech: Panzerwerfer
T4: Panther, Ostwind

And still, I think hull-down should become non-doc for Ostheer as handy-cap buff.


More or less some off-topic, but it is important to look one more than on one topic here.
27 Feb 2020, 19:54 PM
#55
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

If you want to write in German, then us the correct Eszett "ß" and not greek beta


I could have sworn they were the same. They look super similar.

27 Feb 2020, 20:40 PM
#56
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Dejavu, i've seen this suggestion before.



As in the past, i don't think it will prosper at all. There are enough cons to offset any pros the idea might bring.

I havent seen the prior suggestion. I came up with this idea myself.
I want to know, which drawbacks does the Pwerfer on T3 generate? I have seen a few but there might be lots of issues i have not pictured yet.

Also, Was this suggested a long time ago?
27 Feb 2020, 20:43 PM
#57
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

I want to know, which drawbacks does the Pwerfer on T3 generate?


You're giving Ostheer the most late AA in the game.

You're denying Ostheer a pure AI medium vehicle until a premium tier.

You're putting the Ostwind and the Brummbar on the same tier which makes 0 sense since they do the same thing.

You're allowing Ostheer players to get the rapid flame halftruck&puma combo with smoke cannisters, then rush the T3 panzerwerfer which deletes AT gun counterplay.
27 Feb 2020, 20:55 PM
#58
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



You're giving Ostheer the most late AA in the game.

You're denying Ostheer a pure AI medium vehicle until a premium tier.

You're putting the Ostwind and the Brummbar on the same tier which makes 0 sense since they do the same thing.

You're allowing Ostheer players to get the rapid flame halftruck&puma combo with smoke cannisters, then rush the T3 panzerwerfer which deletes AT gun counterplay.

Certainly true. The sole idea of swapping units causes a lot of mess.

I think no change can leave all people content. i was aware of this drawbacks at least.

I had the idea to suggest moving Pz4 to T4 + Lago´s tech revamp. This way T4 and T3 forks between the heavier armor and the support oriented armor. I considered this last idea to be too radical.

Being said that, thanks to add and complete the picture of a change like moving Pwerfer to T3. I Hope everyone engaged will have all the information needed to judge it well. I am partly inclined not to push it though, but there is no reward on those who dont risk at all.
27 Feb 2020, 21:16 PM
#59
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Why does the ostwind or anything have to go to t4 for the werfer to come sooner? Put the werfer in t3+bp3. Weffer comes soon and nothing else is changed unintentionally.
28 Feb 2020, 02:58 AM
#60
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
I don't think I'd agree with this idea but people saying that this will make teamgames cancerous don't even realize that since there are teammates, one of them can easily rely on others to get mediums while he rushes T4 to spam werfers. So teamgames AREN'T affected by this change, but 1v1 will.
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