Why panzerfusiliers are buildable?
30 Jan 2020, 20:30 PM
#21
Posts: 784
PF being buildable is fine and a total nonissue since they don't take that long to build. However, PF could use a buff to their rifles or grenade or something maybe. The issue with buffing them too much is their upgrades are pretty hefty. I'd personally make their rifles more accurate or faster firing at long range than they already are, and/or reduce starting RA to 0.97(same as riflemen and guards) but jump the squad price back up to 280.
30 Jan 2020, 20:34 PM
#22
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
Stop derailing threads with personal accusations.
You are not katitof
I'm not making any accusation. You read my post incorrectly, so I corrected you. You told me I can't compare cons and fussies, well I'm not the one who compared them
The powerspike doesn't exist specifically because fussies aren't call-ins, which is exactly what Aerohank was saying before you misunderstood his point
30 Jan 2020, 20:42 PM
#23
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
First, there are 3 allied factions, only SU has the weakest start unless they go T1.
SU
400MP - 240 (conscripts). When the first squad finishes SU has 290MP left and +290MP/min. No T1/T2 built.
But certainly SU can field another cons squad immediatly after
OKW
320MP - 260 (volks). When the volks squad is trained, OKW has 170MP and + 278MP/min. It takes roughly 30 seconds more to field a PF call in if it could be done.
The mentioned powerspike is not existant.
Assuming the soviet player doesn't build a tech structure.
I also think you underestimate the powerspike. Being able to win the first engagement by having an extra squad (and sturmpios) is not a minor advantage to have against Soviets.
30 Jan 2020, 21:04 PM
#24
Posts: 3600 | Subs: 1
Assuming the soviet player doesn't build a tech structure.
I also think you underestimate the powerspike. Being able to win the first engagement by having an extra squad (and sturmpios) is not a minor advantage to have against Soviets.
Again every faction, Pathfinder cooldown have been increased for the exact same reason.
30 Jan 2020, 21:56 PM
#25
Posts: 2358
I'm not making any accusation. You read my post incorrectly, so I corrected you. You told me I can't compare cons and fussies, well I'm not the one who compared them
The powerspike doesn't exist specifically because fussies aren't call-ins, which is exactly what Aerohank was saying before you misunderstood his point
No, i read your post perfectly. You compare a stock side tech with a doctrinal infantry snare. Those are two far different things. You blamed stug life for it. Dont twist things even more.
I dont need to address Aerohank when i answer you, so you dont do it yourself. Again the one misreading is you.
30 Jan 2020, 22:00 PM
#26
Posts: 2358
Assuming the soviet player doesn't build a tech structure.
I also think you underestimate the powerspike. Being able to win the first engagement by having an extra squad (and sturmpios) is not a minor advantage to have against Soviets.
I dont really underestimate it. But i think there is a design behind all this. Some units had better early presence, other rely on a heavy cover to secure the first engagement.
It is a bit too vague to assume that a doctrinal infantry can outclass by powerspike SU. Of course if SU went for penal they will be outnumbered.
The first encounter is important but that doesnt mean you shouls rush your units into the fuel point like zombies.
30 Jan 2020, 22:33 PM
#27
Posts: 3260
I dont really underestimate it.
It doesn't matter how big it is. Having a Panzerfusilier powerspike at all runs entirely counter to the "alternate Volks" design they were going for.
30 Jan 2020, 22:34 PM
#28
Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1
No, i read your post perfectly. You compare a stock side tech with a doctrinal infantry snare. Those are two far different things. You blamed stug life for it. Dont twist things even more.
I responded to his point, in which HE compared conscripts and Fussies...
No one is twisting anything. He literally said fussies perform worse than cons while costing 270mp. If he wants to make that claim he has to consider what conscripts cost, it's not that complicated
I dont need to address Aerohank when i answer you, so you dont do it yourself. Again the one misreading is you.
I referenced Aerohanks post in mine that originally you quoted...
And I'm not the one Lago and Aerohank are explaining the point to, that would be you
31 Jan 2020, 00:18 AM
#29
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Call-ins don't share a build queue with T0 units, which lets you deploy infantry faster.
One can simply start them on CD as other units CP 0 units, there is little reason to be build able.
The point of Panzerfusiliers is to be an alternative opening for OKW: less powerful initially but with more powerful upgrades which allow them to scale better into the late game.
The cost more than VG and perform worse before upgrading. The only reason to built them early is the snare.
Making them call-ins would improve Breakthrough and Grand Offensive's early game, which is counterproductive to the design goals of the unit.
Not really since the can start on CD and they probably should not be available in Grand offensive anyway.
Being build able would only makes sense if they where designed to completely substitute VG and according to the team they do not.
31 Jan 2020, 00:25 AM
#30
Posts: 3260
One can simply start them on CD as other units CP 0 units, there is little reason to be build able.
Starting on cooldown delays the power spike but it doesn't remove it. Take USF's Armor Company. The Assault Engineer comes off cooldown at the same time the first Rifleman squad completes. An mixed Assault Engineer/Rifleman build then has three squads on the field when a pure Rifleman build would have two.
The cost more than VG and perform worse before upgrading. The only reason to built them early is the snare.
They also perform better in the late game, as the G43 package is substantially stronger than the StG 44 package.
They're a worse option early on, but if you weather that hit you're rewarded later.
Being build able would only makes sense if they where designed to completely substitute VG and according to the team they do not.
They're designed as alternate mainline infantry. You can go full Volks, full Panzerfusiliers, or mix them up.
31 Jan 2020, 00:50 AM
#31
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Starting on cooldown delays the power spike but it doesn't remove it. Take USF's Armor Company. The Assault Engineer comes off cooldown at the same time the first Rifleman squad completes. An mixed Assault Engineer/Rifleman build then has three squads on the field when a pure Rifleman build would have two.
That depend on how much the CD is doesn't it? It also depend on the map since in some call-in units arrive earlier than building a unit thru the pipe and on others later.
Actually I had suggested that all CP 0 call in infatry should become buildable from base so standardize arrival time in all maps. Using different mechanism for no good reason when there are other alternatives is a bad habit that should be avoided imo.
PF balance issues are not really relevant in this thread and there is another...
31 Jan 2020, 01:07 AM
#32
Posts: 3260
That depend on how much the CD is doesn't it? It also depend on the map since in some call-in units arrive early or late.
It does. A really long cooldown was the solution with I&R Pathfinders.
But if you gave Panzerfusiliers a really long cooldown you'd render them unusable as a Volks replacement.
Panzerfusiliers are built from the HQ because it's a clean way to meet all of the Balance Team's design goals for them.
31 Jan 2020, 09:58 AM
#33
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
It does. A really long cooldown was the solution with I&R Pathfinders.
But if you gave Panzerfusiliers a really long cooldown you'd render them unusable as a Volks replacement.
Panzerfusiliers are built from the HQ because it's a clean way to meet all of the Balance Team's design goals for them.
Then is should apply to all CP 0 call in infantry because arrival is map depended.
The question is not so much why they are buildable but why the have different mechanism than other call-in infatry. Osttruppen are also a grenadier replacement and they are still call-in.
31 Jan 2020, 10:48 AM
#34
Posts: 1389 | Subs: 1
The question is not so much why they are buildable but why the have different mechanism than other call-in infatry.
This. It also true for doctrinal vehicles, but i will create separate thread to avoid offtopic here.
31 Jan 2020, 10:57 AM
#35
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Call-ins don't share a build queue with T0 units, which lets you deploy infantry faster.
This was the primary reason (for me). Remember back then OKW still had 340 starting manpower and Volks were 250mp, which would have meant OKW would've been able to build a squad of Volks and then deploy a squad of Panzerfusiliers (even if they'd start on cooldown) practically simultaneously. Something OKW with its already oppressive starting power absolutely did not need to have.
Ill tell you OP why. When PF got reworked into what they are now, with the grand offensive commander. The Pshrek upgrade specially, started a huge forum war because mostly allied players said they are going to be volkshreks 2.0, OPAF to keep it short.
To keep the beasts tamed the dev team proceed to nerf the squad in rather stupid ways, like decreasing its squad size, make it buildable and other stuff.
That is not the correct order of events. Reworked Panzerfusiliers were changed to be buildable with all the "stupid" changes right from the very first version of the balance mod. Before anyone else knew it was our intention to give them Panzerschrecks and well before all the complaints about Panzerschreck Panzerfusiliers presumably becoming Schreck Volks 2.0 (which, as we rightfully predicted, have proven to be unfounded by the way).
http://www.companyofheroes.com/blog/2019/03/19/new-commander-update-commander-rosters-and-test-mod
31 Jan 2020, 11:21 AM
#36
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
This. It also true for doctrinal vehicles, but i will create separate thread to avoid offtopic here.
This was the primary reason (for me).
Deployment time is only one part of the equation since the unit has to walk and some times that much longer than building in the pipe and some much less.
Imo the problem with CP 0 call in infatry is that their timing is very much depended on maps.
Currently some units are buildable other are call-in some start on cool down and some start on cooldown after the commander is being chosen, imo there is little reason for different mechanism when they can be unified. This difference can be gradually ironed out the end result would become better.
Take for instance rail and metal:
The player on the bottom can call-in infatry to player's on the right base greatly reducing walk time creating an unnecessary imbalance.
31 Jan 2020, 18:46 PM
#37
Posts: 1484
Probably to avoid the early game powerspike of having Sturms, volks and a Fussie squad out by the same time as a soviet player has 1 combat engineer and 1 Conscript out. To avoid the power spike, the unit would need to have a very long cool down, but if the cooldown is very long, then you cannot use fussies as a replacement for your volks. Solution: make them buildable in the HQ so you cannot get them and Volks at the same time.
Make sense to me. I also prefer Panzerfus to be built from HQ instead of call in, it helps with the build order a lot more.
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