EDIT SUMMARY:
For benefit of new readers. We think we have found the issue. Tiger turret tracking is too slow and it does not vet up. Suggestion is to give it a vet3 bonus, same as other tanks. It has slow tank rotation and slow turret tracking. It feels closer to a fixed TD than generalist from this aspect. When you compare to say IS2, Pershing, Comet, KV2, Churchill. These tanks turrets can run rings around Tiger in team games and bigger maps. Again, story of Wehr, you need heavier Tiger micro to face its turret correctly, hence a bit unfair, underperforming for its costs.
EDIT2: Pershing is clearly better than Tiger, comparing their stats and their faction composition. Please help Tiger.
I been practicing Ace. And found it is quite poor tank in a tank sense. Whenever my oppo see me use it, they will go comet or pershing. And boy do those 2 tanks counter Ace well. I even find my Ace shell frickin bounce! Imo Ace needs pen to be 260 same as panther for start.
Then su85/atg seems to keep penetrating more often than not. Like 2/3 shots will hit and boy did i suffer health loss easier than was expecting.
Of its AI gun seems ok, i noticed to wipe infantry, it needs at least 4 shots if those allies scum dont retreat. In between them, at least it hit their hp more than say p4.
Is Tiger/Ace an AI or AT tank?
14 Nov 2019, 06:10 AM
#1
Posts: 1794
14 Nov 2019, 06:42 AM
#2
Posts: 1794
Zaloga uses Wittmann's career to illustrate the point of the battlefield advantage. He credits Wittmann with "about 135" tanks destroyed, but points out that Wittmann achieved 120 of these in 1943, operating a Tiger I tank on the Eastern Front. Having advantages both in firepower and in armour, Tiger I was "nearly invulnerable in a frontal engagement" against any of the Soviet tanks of that time. Wittmann thus could "kill its opponents long before they were close enough to inflict damage on his tank".[23] Zaloga concludes: "Most of the 'tank aces' of World War II were simply lucky enough to have an invulnerable tank with a powerful gun"
14 Nov 2019, 06:43 AM
#3
Posts: 1794
Hope we can see the above with ace. Imo its strange is2 has more armor and pen than ace.
Imo vet2 bonus give ace 10% armor and +10 pen
Imo vet2 bonus give ace 10% armor and +10 pen
14 Nov 2019, 07:00 AM
#4
Posts: 5279
The tiger is a formidable tank but like all tanks is weak to dedicated counters (that would explain why the su85 is penning... That's sort of its job... It's only... Job.....) anything less than that will more than likley bounce off.
AT guns have the same pen they always have (or at least for ages) and the armour of the tiger hasn't changed in a dog's age either. ~2/3 chance to pen.
The tiger ace is a normal tiger with a bit of extra flare, but it's still a normal tiger.
AT guns have the same pen they always have (or at least for ages) and the armour of the tiger hasn't changed in a dog's age either. ~2/3 chance to pen.
The tiger ace is a normal tiger with a bit of extra flare, but it's still a normal tiger.
#stalinwept
14 Nov 2019, 07:15 AM
#5
Posts: 1794
Seems to me comet and Pershing deals with ace better than panther with is2.
Of course double jacksons and p47 made my ace cry hard. Somehow its turret is too slow to get a lock on rushing jackson,pershing and comet.
Anyway i think we should make its pen 260 for a start and have the armor bonus at vet3. To give it a bit more flare. I think it needs most cp resources? I think it will be fun to have a real hero unit.
Of course double jacksons and p47 made my ace cry hard. Somehow its turret is too slow to get a lock on rushing jackson,pershing and comet.
Anyway i think we should make its pen 260 for a start and have the armor bonus at vet3. To give it a bit more flare. I think it needs most cp resources? I think it will be fun to have a real hero unit.
14 Nov 2019, 07:54 AM
#6
Posts: 5279
Wouldn't be opposed to more pen to show the strength of the 88, regular tiger as well, but the tiger will munch both a comet and a Pershing in single combat. As for double Jackson and p47s... That an awful lot of AT and absolutely should eat a Tiger... It would be broke as all hell if it didn't.
#stalinwept
14 Nov 2019, 08:23 AM
#7
Posts: 1794
Yes please buff tigers pen to same as panther.
Pretty weird to see it bounced Churchill and kv tanks. Against faster smaller pershing, comet, it struggles.
It cant flank for rear armor.
Even if its rof is faster, how much faster to compensate low pen? Say its normal shot takes (pulled from thin air, based on experience) 3s, and is2 takes 3.5s, i dont think it is good.
Pretty weird to see it bounced Churchill and kv tanks. Against faster smaller pershing, comet, it struggles.
It cant flank for rear armor.
Even if its rof is faster, how much faster to compensate low pen? Say its normal shot takes (pulled from thin air, based on experience) 3s, and is2 takes 3.5s, i dont think it is good.
14 Nov 2019, 08:27 AM
#8
Posts: 1794
Slow tank, low range, big target size, vs 60td and snares. I dont think old design for it to stay close range works now.
Does its rof compensate for such deficiencies? Maybe if it has 375 frontal armor?
Pen buff plz.
Does its rof compensate for such deficiencies? Maybe if it has 375 frontal armor?
Pen buff plz.
14 Nov 2019, 08:46 AM
#9
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Whenever my oppo see me use it, they will go comet or pershing. And boy do those 2 tanks counter Ace well
The Tiger Ace has 1280 health, 240/220/200 penetration, 300 armor and 5.25s reload.
And 50 range at vet 2.
The Comet has 800 health, 210/190/170 penetration, 290 armor and 6.4s reload.
The Pershing has 960 health, 260/240/220 penetration, 270 armor and 6.75s reload.
These two units do not counter the Ace at all. If they do, the problem is player related.
14 Nov 2019, 08:47 AM
#10
Posts: 65
Go for more practice instead of spamming posts of asking for buffs.
You can try playing usf or ukf and counter ACE with pershing or comet
then you will get another answer.
You can try playing usf or ukf and counter ACE with pershing or comet
then you will get another answer.
14 Nov 2019, 08:51 AM
#11
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
The Tiger already has a firepower advantage with much faster reload compared to the Pershing and IS2. You can't buff penetration without nerfing reload.
The combination of the bonus sight with Spearhead and the extended range at vet 2 is extremely powerful and makes the Ace an absolute killing machine against both infantry and tanks. You can get to vet 2 quickly, because the Tiger Ace has 1 star of prevet. Combine this with the extra health and crit repair and you can keep allot of pressure on the opponent.
If your Tiger Ace gets countered by a Pershing or Comets, you should post a replay and go to strategy desk, because it sounds like you're not supporting it sufficiently.
The combination of the bonus sight with Spearhead and the extended range at vet 2 is extremely powerful and makes the Ace an absolute killing machine against both infantry and tanks. You can get to vet 2 quickly, because the Tiger Ace has 1 star of prevet. Combine this with the extra health and crit repair and you can keep allot of pressure on the opponent.
If your Tiger Ace gets countered by a Pershing or Comets, you should post a replay and go to strategy desk, because it sounds like you're not supporting it sufficiently.
14 Nov 2019, 08:51 AM
#12
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
I've gotta say, I'm incredibly disappointed that we don't see here "AEC trolls it" argument.
All the other checkpoints are met tho.
All the other checkpoints are met tho.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Nov 2019, 08:52 AM
#13
Posts: 1794
How about their speed and turret tracking.
Rof is good but if you cant target those slimey fast ones, it don't matter.
Comet with tank commander gets moving accuracy too.
I guess this is how i am suffering. My ace gotta keep back tracking and praying its turret does something. And when it did, i saw times it bounced.
Rof is good but if you cant target those slimey fast ones, it don't matter.
Comet with tank commander gets moving accuracy too.
I guess this is how i am suffering. My ace gotta keep back tracking and praying its turret does something. And when it did, i saw times it bounced.
14 Nov 2019, 08:57 AM
#14
Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3
I've gotta say, I'm incredibly disappointed that we don't see here "AEC trolls it" argument.
All the other checkpoints are met tho.
I fear you might be correct, I can't read this thread without trololo song in my head.
14 Nov 2019, 08:57 AM
#15
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
How about their speed and turret tracking.
It was slower then IS-2.
It is slower then IS-2 in game.
All heavies turrets rotate slow, you're not supposed to instantly delete meds that circled you.
Rof is good but if you cant target those slimey fast ones, it don't matter.
Learn to support your units.
If you expect a singular unit to take whole army of your opponent and come on top, go play sins of solar empire rebellion and get yourself a titan.
Comet with tank commander gets moving accuracy too.
So?
I guess this is how i am suffering. My ace gotta keep back tracking and praying its turret does something. And when it did, i saw times it bounced.
You're suffering, because you're bad player, with bad micro skills and are incapable of not over-extending and actually supporting your units with other units properly.
Everything else is excuses.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Nov 2019, 09:14 AM
#16
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Comet with tank commander gets moving accuracy too
Tank Commander upgrade gives +10% accuracy, which is then halved when on the move (0.5 moving accuracy multiplier). A +5% accuracy advantage is hardly worth mentioning.
The reason the Comet is a bit better on the move than the Ace is because of slightly higher base accuracy (but only until the Ace gets vet 2) and a target size advantage (Comet's 22 TS vs the Ace's 26 TS).
The Comet's manoeuvrability advantage is mostly diminished by the Ace's higher health, higher chance to bounce and higher ROF. And higher range and sight at vet 2 with Spearhead mode. And by denying flanks by supporting it with snares, mines, ATGs, Panzershrecks or another tank.
14 Nov 2019, 09:57 AM
#17
Posts: 177
Yeah the pershing doesn't counter tiger and absolutely doesn't counter ace. I have no noteworthy experience about p6 vs comet so either I had no issue facing them or game never got to that point.
It is true that as allied player facing the axis heavies you have access to more 'harder' counters in form of dedicated TDs that come quicker than t4 panther for ostheer, but this again is more about the ostheer design currently being shit against heavies in competitive 1v1 setup than the allied counterparts being OP.
Also what can make the IS2 vs P6 comparison more in favour for IS2 is that the meta compositions of the armies favour heavily soviet: Zis guns & IS2 beat P6 & T3. In vacuum the Tiger wins the IS2.
It is true that as allied player facing the axis heavies you have access to more 'harder' counters in form of dedicated TDs that come quicker than t4 panther for ostheer, but this again is more about the ostheer design currently being shit against heavies in competitive 1v1 setup than the allied counterparts being OP.
Also what can make the IS2 vs P6 comparison more in favour for IS2 is that the meta compositions of the armies favour heavily soviet: Zis guns & IS2 beat P6 & T3. In vacuum the Tiger wins the IS2.
14 Nov 2019, 12:55 PM
#18
Posts: 1794
Ah i know where i error here. In 1v1 and some 2v2 map, the tiger short comings are hidden. But in bigger games, with more targets and wider space, tiger is not as effective AT and you use it as AI mostly.
For tiger most hyped rof, if we add in turret rotation and chance to pen, can we say its still strong? Rof is good if you shoot infantry or unusually static tanks...
Suggestions is to buff turret by some % on vet3. This will make it useful AT in late big games.
Tbh, i dont see why pen can be improved when allies have more tanks with heavy armor and wehr don't have a 60TD of crazy pen values
For tiger most hyped rof, if we add in turret rotation and chance to pen, can we say its still strong? Rof is good if you shoot infantry or unusually static tanks...
Suggestions is to buff turret by some % on vet3. This will make it useful AT in late big games.
Tbh, i dont see why pen can be improved when allies have more tanks with heavy armor and wehr don't have a 60TD of crazy pen values
14 Nov 2019, 13:05 PM
#19
Posts: 1794
Is2 turret went from 19 to 28.5 on vet,, it also receive reload bonus and range bonus on vet. Is2 vet rof makes it better than non vet panther and tiger.
I guess why i find is2 more comprehensive heavy than tiger since the bonus is more rounded
I guess why i find is2 more comprehensive heavy than tiger since the bonus is more rounded
14 Nov 2019, 13:07 PM
#20
Posts: 3260
The Tiger's a generalist. It's got high pen and good AoE, making it dangerous to just about anything.
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