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6 changes to improve Wehrmacht commanders thematically

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30 Oct 2019, 13:52 PM
#1
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 827 | Subs: 1

Hi guys,

the last patch brought some minor but very welcome commander changes to factions like soviets, OKW and USF. My hope is that the mod team can incorporate some smaller changes to wehrmacht commanders too in one of the next patches.
IM not talking of full scale reworks (which would be great) but smaller changes that improve commanders without needing much time to test.

That being said there are 2 rules to follow:
1. You only have 6 suggestions for changes.
2. You can only suggest 2 changes for 1 commander.

This will help us to prioritise and hopefully make life easier for the mod team.

Here are my suggestions:

General ability changes: (1 change)
1. Reduce the cp rquirements for smoke bombs to 2 CP.
USF can get offmap smoke at 1 CP, OKW at 2 CP, its only fair to give wehrmacht the same treatment like other factions.

Commander specific changes:

1. Lightning War doctrine (1 change)
OUT: Relief infantry - no explanation needed!
IN: Breakthrough ability (Kessel doctrine)
Explanation: Blitzkrieg should focus on high mobility, "breakthrough" grants your vehicles exactly that.

2. Festung Support doctrine (2 changes)
OUT: Relief infantry - no explanation needed!
IN: Forward Hq (1CP, like the one in Soviet urban defense)

OUT: Mortar halftrack- unit doesnt fit to the theme!
IN: Heavy fortification (2CP, OKW ability)

Explanation:
Poor "festung support" is one of the worst commanders in the whole game. It doesent offer anything that fits to the (dubious) theme. But after these changes it looks a lot better because of 2 unique abilities for the faction that also fit thematically.

3. Mechanized doctrine (2 changes)
Now its getting more controversial. I know that there are some people who like the doctrine in its current state. Nevertheless i will use my last 2 suggestions here.

OUT: leFH -very good unit that doesnt fit to the theme.
IN: Panzer II Luchs (available at T2)

OUT: Smoke bombs - hate to replace it but...
IN: Emergency Repairs (like the one in Elite Armor)

Explanation:
"Mechanized" should focus in my opinion on vehicle specific abilities / units. The PII was a backbone of the wehrmacht's tank forces in the early years of the war and should for this reason alone at least be available in 1 wehrmacht doctrine. Fuel cost could be in need of adjustment though.
Emergency repairs will be extremely helpful from the early midgame until the late game and fits perfectly to the theme. I prefer it over the very useful smoke bombs because of the better fit.


I hope you like the thread (if you like it we could continue with other factions) - feedback is very welcome. Im exited to see your own suggestions!

One last wish:
We had an excellent thread during the "new commander design period" for "Strategic reserves" - almost zero flaming, no shitty axis/alies talk but a lot of good, constructive posts.
LETS DO IT AGAIN!


Greets,
Smartie
30 Oct 2019, 14:22 PM
#2
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3397 | Subs: 2

Relief infantry is a very good ability, it should not be moved from Lightning War.

I think Mobile Defense needs a rework. Perhaps the Panzer IV F1 command tank could be experimentally moved to T2 to function as the Ostheer’s mid game light vehicle? Perhaps the command tank could become just a panzer IV F1? The doctrine could also afford 0CP Osttruppen and a 250 Halftruck, with the Puma being removed.

Another commander which I think could use a change is Spearhead, which could utilize assgrens which would fit the theme of the doctrine more.
30 Oct 2019, 15:03 PM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 11758 | Subs: 1

1. Lightning War doctrine

Out Tiger, a Commander should not combine doctrinal weapons upgrade super heavies and powerful off map.

In PzIV F1, a sort barrel PzIV with lower armor/HP/higher speed closer to valentine.


3. Mechanized doctrine
Replace the LMG grenadier passenger with 6 man repair team already in game file available in TOW
Could be built in T2 after BP2 research.
30 Oct 2019, 15:19 PM
#4
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 175

General ability changes:

1.G43s:
Upgrading your grenadiers with g43s should change the Rifle grenade to model 24 grenade to better fulfill their role as mobile close-mid range unit.

2.Command P4
Command p4 should be 5CP like the valentine and only require T2 teched like stug E. It currently requires the construction of either heavy panzer korps or support armor corps rendering it as a poor choice compared to the likes of ostwind and regular p4.

3.Light artillery barrage
In its current form this ability fires 4 volleys of leig fire into the area. As a result of long delay between these volleys the enemy can react to it after it late and still survive. Not reacting to a 100 muni doctrinal artillery ability before it starts should result in a guaranteed squad wipe. Halve the delay between the volleys.

Commander specific changes:

4.Lightning war:
OUT: Relief infantry.
IN: Grenadier field defences (0CP)
"Grenadiers are trained to lay down sandbags and schu mines."
- Fair and balanced.
30 Oct 2019, 17:37 PM
#15
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 356 | Subs: 1

I would respond to the above argument, but I don't want to derail this excellent thread by Smartie.

I agree that Relief Infantry should be removed on every single commander. It's a totally useless abiltiy. If I want Osttruppen, I'll pick one of those doctrines, ty.

The idea of giving Mechanized a Luchs would be really cool. I agree that the Lefh doesn't really fit. In addition, I would change the 250 HT from call-in to buildable (like on German inf).

Festung Support could be fixed relatively easily by giving it a Forward HQ. Heavy Fortifications could be an interesting idea a well, as the MHT is sadly not very good.

One of the Luftwaffe doctrines *needs* Fallschirmjägers. Overall, it probably fits CAS better.

Please Relic, I implore you to give the King Tiger to one of the commanders. Festung Armor in particular could benefit from it if the Command Pz4 is replaced by a KT. Thematically, it would fit much better. Also, a hulled down King Tiger would be interesting to say the least.
30 Oct 2019, 20:17 PM
#16
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 785

Ima dump this here

Commanders


Infantry doctrines

Jager infantry
(1) Camo + Sprint
(1) G43s
(1) Jager command squad
(1) Light artillery barrage
(1) Stuka AT loiter

German infantry
(1) 250HT
(1) Veteran squad leader
(1) stormtroopers
(1) Assault and hold
(1) Frag bombs

Osttruppen
(1) 0cp osttruppen
(1) entrenching tools
(1) Support half tracks (medical/repair)
(1) Artillery field officer
(1) Stuka AT loiter

Defensive
(1) Fortifications
(1) Panzerpioneers
(1) Jagdpanzer
(1) LefH 18
(1) Perimeter Overwatch

Festung Support
(2) Fortifications
(1) Mortar HT
(1) Osttruppen reserves
(1) Elephant
(1) Railway artillery



Armour doctrines

Jager armour
- Renamed to Fortified armour
(1) regel HT mines
(1) Spotting scopes
(1) recon plane
(1) SDB
(2) Elephant

Festung armour
! (1) Heavy pioneer upgrade
(1) hull down
(1) command tank
(1) recon overflight
! (2) perimeter Overwatch

Fortified armour
- renamed to Jager armour
(1) Panzer tactician
! (1) PanzerJagers
! (1) Puma
- penetration reduced, 90muni HEAT ammo upgrade, allows to regularly pen stuart, AEC, t70
! (1) Jagdpanzer
(3) Anti tank perimeter overwatch
- very light damage - temporary engine damage - friendly territory only

Mechanized assault
! (1) PanzerPioneers
(2) 250 HT
(1) StuG E
(1) Tiger
(2) light artillery

Spearhead
! (1) Assault grenadiers
! (1) Infantry Support P4
- 4cp - 70fuel - requires: only one deployed OR bp2 - 90muni HEAT ammo upgrade, allows to pen stuart, AEC, t70
(2)Tiger
! (2) emergency repairs (Brit smoke repairs)
(3) Stuka AT loiter



Mixed doctrines

Blitzkrieg
(1) G43s
! (1) Breakthrough
(2) Recon overflight
(3) Tiger
! (2) SDB

Assault support
(2) Artillery field officer
(1) supply truck
(1) Stuka MG loiter
! /Frag bombs/ (1) LefH 18
(4) Tiger

Lightning war
- renamed mechanized support
(0cp)

Elite troops

German mechanized

Mobile defence



Artillery

Joint operations
() Artillery field officer
() Panzer commander
() LefH
() mortar half track
() PaK 43

Storm
() Stormtroopers
() Stuka smoke drop
() StuG E
() LefH
() SDB

Encirclement
()
()
()
()
()

Luftwaffe supply
- renamed to Luftwaffe support
(2) Weapons supply drop
(1) Fallchrimjagers
- 5man - k98s - 100 munitions x3 fg42 - 100 munitions x2 mg34 (Paratrooper m1919s)
(2) Flack HT
(1) butterfly bombs
(4) Air Assault
- 60munitions - tanks can call in SDB - falls can air reinforce - infantry can call in medical supplies

Close air support
(1) Luftwaffe ground forces
(1) weapon supply drop
(2) Stuka smoke drop
(2) Stuka MG loiter
(?) SDB



Panzerpioneers - 5 man k98 squad that can upgrade x2 scoped g43s
Can repair and emergency repair
30 Oct 2019, 20:25 PM
#17
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3397 | Subs: 2

Giving Ostheer the OKW Fallschrimjagers is a terrible idea.
31 Oct 2019, 01:38 AM
#18
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

There are some good ideas in this thread (particularly getting rid of Relief Infantry) but, there are too many OKW units included. Transfers between factions is something to be avoided.

The only one that makes sense is having Fallschirmjaegers in a Luftwaffe doctrine but, they would need to be reworked into an infiltration unit (MP40's with upgrade of 1 FG42) to make sense within the faction.

Lower CP requirements for Smoke Bombs sounds fair enough. It's only in a few doctrines, it costs munitions and Ostheer has access to other smoke options. It's not something likely to be abused.

A buildable PIVF1 is a good idea (T0 after BP2 would be my preference) but, the Command version should stay doctrinal.

Most of oootto92's ideas sound good but, I'm not sure about the Light Barrage. A 20 - 25% reduction might be better; 50% just sounds like too much.

Vipper's Mechanized Repair Team sounds interesting but, I'm curious about the mechanics of it. Are they tied to the half-track or can they wander the map on their own?

And, I'm not going anywhere near KiwiBirb's dump, let alone touching it.:faint:
31 Oct 2019, 06:38 AM
#19
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 175

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Oct 2019, 15:03 PMVipper
1. Lightning War doctrine

Out Tiger, a Commander should not combine doctrinal weapons upgrade super heavies and powerful off map.


I'd like to argue that G43s are not a solid buff to the infantry because grenadiers already have the option to go for lmg42s and pgren stgs are great. G43s just provide you with a possibility for a different playstyle.

I understand where you are coming with this, but I think that G43s in their current state are nowhere near as good of an infantry upgrade as the ability to lay sandbags and mines with mainline infantry from CP0. Lightning war doctrine is balanced if you compare it to the Heavy Cavalry Company.
31 Oct 2019, 07:08 AM
#20
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 827 | Subs: 1

There are some good ideas in this thread (particularly getting rid of Relief Infantry) but, there are too many OKW units included. Transfers between factions is something to be avoided.


In general i agree with your opinion but i would seperare units from abilities. Tank commander, emergency repairs and other abilities are not iconic imo and could and should be used to improve wehr commanders.

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