They really aren't. I think there's definitely an argument to made that they have too much utility built in to their kit, but that's a different conversation.
In a 1v1 you should be able to completely bully them with penals in the early game. Once they get their upgrades it becomes a lot closer, obviously they're much better on the move and up close, but penals do pretty well against them at range. You also have the freedom to build a sniper, which the OKW player will have no reliable counter for if he goes fusiliers. Neither of these units even require you to commit to a specific doctrine.
I can understand them being difficult to deal with in giant blobs in larger game modes, but in 1v1 they have pretty clear weaknesess. Soviets are probably OKW's toughest matchup.
According to serelia they do similar damage at max range and both units have similar target size. I also tend to use snipers as you suggested but that falls off once recon packages and flares come online. As they are 6 man squads with concentrated DPS they can take the model drops and push towards the sniper for a retreat. At high vet they even get sprint which means a late retreat is most likely a death due to the excellent moving DPS. As others have said it requires a lot more work to counter than to use. I personally find it easier to skip the car, go 3 Penals into Guards/Airborne LMG and punish them that way.
Just a side note Penals DPS and target size are wrong on serelia. They didn’t update it after march 2021. Also according to Hannibal the PF close range DPS is a bit high don’t know if that applies to long range. |
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I truly hate these units in team games. I can’t remember if keep capture point connected for the whole team or owner when they are cut off. Aside from that they only benefit the owner and take up pop cap. So it is negatively affecting your whole team unless your floating MP or part of an arranged team with a specific goal in mind.
Edit: For Soviets it doesn’t really make sense as most of their vehicles are cheap fuel wise anyways. I understand for OST T4 or OKW heavies but Soviets seem like a waste. |
There is a away and it is DPS.
Total DPS of squad is more relevant than the DPS of half the squad.
Should be in this case.
PF are badly designed and so are Penals it is a simply as that.
I agree that both are badly designed. In regards to the modifiers I am talking about how each individually impacts DPS. ACC seems to be the most important but how much more important. Using Penals, as the thread is about Penals, how would a VET 2 Penal with 30% ACC/20% cooldown compare to a Commissar buffed Penal Vet0 with 20% ACC/50% cooldown? How would a Vet3 Penal compare to Vet0 Penal with mother Russia? What impact does weapon cooldown have on the different weapon profiles/flamethrower? Having a quick way to check changes would allow for more tactical planning during pushes or allow for better defensive planning.
I also assume OP has mistaken accuracy for DPS, but as Vipper said even then he is not correct since not all of the models carry G43s.
Just some numbers to get this straight:
- The G43 retains between 86% (close) to 95% (far) of its DPS while moving. Sidenote: Serealia's DPS here is too high, close DPS is 7,4 when static and 6,4 when moving.
- The whole Pfusilier squad retains about 75% (close, static DPS 32,6, moving 24,4) to 73% (far) when moving.
This is WAY higher than most other squads. For comparison: Penal's DPS gets roughly halved (52% to 57%) when moving. Same even with more mobile and aggressive squads like Pgrens (55% to 51%). There are very few other squads that compare or beat Pfusiliers on that, e.g. upgraded Rangers with 90%/78% DPS retention at close/far. However, these squads usually the same weapon on all of their models, making a model loss significantly impact not only total, but also moving DPS. And this is where the most prominent problem of Pfusies kicks in: A moving Pfusilier squad does not lose much DPS for the first 3 model losses. The Kars contribute relatively little DPS on the move, and the G43s are retained and transferred to surviving models. Therefore, there is usually no reason to stop moving for the OKW player when losing models due to the lack of punishment. Pfusies can cross large distances of open terrain on assaults, which is something that no other assault squad can provide that well. That along other factors is why we see blobs of Pfusies mindlessly charging across open field.
This is my main issue with mixed model units. Sticking to PF, their DPS retainment along with vision is a bit to much as it allows PF to minimize losses in relation to other assault squads. On paper AssGuards should be better, but since they hit later/have worse vision they can be easily punished.
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Fact remains they do not have 90% accuracy on the move (and 80% is not 90%). The modifier on its own does not say much and one should be looking at total DPS.
Allies also have infatry that are "excellent for chase down wipes" while VG and grenadiers are not.
I was just commenting on him using accuracy. I agree the modifier on its own doesn't say much, I wish there was a way for the game to show what certain increases due such as acc/cooldown/moving acc/reload etc..
However moving on to total DPS, a stationary PF G43 does 9.418 while moving does 8.266 which means almost 88% of total DPS is maintained. Drops to a bit above 86% with VET, giving a quick look no other weapon maintains that level of performance on the move which is why it works so well in blobs.
Again I am assuming Serelias numbers are accurate. |
While it was kinda funny when (arranged) teams pulled it off, it got removed because it was broken.
The combat veterancy with then double 1.3 accuracy multipliers (now 1.3 and 1.2 at vet 2 and 3 respectively) is clearly not designed with weapon slots in mind.
Almost +70% dps at vet 3 and double LMG turned them into absolute terminator squads that won every fight with ease to a point where it was hopeless for axis inf. Some people even took that a step further and spammed "For Mother Russia" with then +50% accuracy 
It was as bad as when Conscripts had 2 slots or when the +300% accuracy cover bonus from Osttruppen applied to their slot weapons with 0 penalty
Even now, with a single LMG they are great. With Airborne Guards dropping DP, I can literally upgrade my Penals also which makes them a terror at range. They are also a decent amount stronger per gun due to the vet you described.
Overall, they probably should have removed a weapon slot or even both and made their VET a bit better. It probably would have been easier to balance that way. |
PF do not have 90% accuracy on the move:
G43 on the move:
0.5064/0.3864/0.3408
K98 on the move:
0.4025/0.374/0.345
Im assuming he is talking about their 80% movement modifier which makes them excellent for chase down wipes. |
gj, nice support weapon play
Thanks.
Where you been at bro, haven't seen any games posted by you lately. |
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Ally made sniper so I went penal/clowncar. Early on we had 3 engineers vs 1 Sturm, funny fight. OST player was slow to help so we were able to push and keep right side. I eventually help flank left side which ally is able to hold on to after I leave. We pretty much start to dominate and ally inexplicably just drops at 21mins, from there I hold middle and throwing away units trying to put the game away before computer ally shits away the game.
Axis pulled off a slow effective flank to kill allied sniper.
They probably would have won if the Axis player matched up against CPU would have just dived and used up his resources. He was hoarding for no reason.
Since he wouldn't commit I had chances to recrew MG/mortar and keep VP pressure up. |
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Probably one of the things I hate to see as it only helps the owner and not the entire team. It also seems to benefit soviets more as cons+reinforcements are cheap, so MP waste not big factor.
Highlights
Ally KV2 around 40 kills
Failed push by multiple axis resulted in dead Tiger/P4J, however I lost both tanks
Axis did a great job punishing left side of map and spamming early tanks. I didn't realize one player was cache and truck spamming so they got tanks out pretty quick.
Fairly good teamwork on both sides
Lowlights
I tried to push and kill KT, messed up lost 1 SU85 and almost lost 2nd. Pretty noobish stuff |
Are you sure nerfed is not the right word you are looking for?
As one of the players who consistently spoke for the nerf of the stealth-ninja raket from the beginning, I never thought I would be the one to defend it; but truth to be told OKW is currently one of the weakest factions in early vehicle timing(6~16 min.) along with UKF.
I'm not sure about what other good players think, but I personally put OKW next to UKF in 1v1.
Something like
SOV >= WM = USF >> OKW >> UKF
DO you mean the units themselves or the timings. FLAK track comes in around the 6 min mark, luchs is a tiny bit before 7 mins with equal fuel. So the timings aren't to bad. To me the bigger issue seems to be the tech choice. If both buildings had the option to upgrade meds/repairs I think mechanized would see a resurgence. The fact that you have to pick LV vs healing is nonsense. |
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