60 range Stug would be WAY too op. Please stop with this.
How so, especially compared to the M36?
It's slower, doesn't have a turret, doesn't have HVAP, and doesn't have a crew (and all the bonuses/gimmicks associated with that). A 60-range stug would come as either a more expensive unit, or as an expensive (i.e. not just ammo) upgrade to the normal stug.
whats gonna counter 60 range stugs supported by command p4? whats the egde allies gonna have? when stug is faster and has faster rate of fire then su85?
axis already has a very strong early game in team games becouse of mg42... or just okw things...
please keep the topic on the Jackson and espacially the proposed change in Jackson puma interaction in order to make p4 pen Jackson 100%
1. Flanking, smoke, ambushes... just like Axis has to do now against SU85s and M36s when properly supported.
2. Axis early game is no stronger than Allied early game. Look at the current state of Sov early game and their scaling, as well as the performance of USF rifles, then also look at the power of Allied LVs compared to axis. Each side/faction has its strengths and weaknesses at most points in the game.
3. This is generally focused on the M36 - it's just that the armor nerf wouldn't change anything, as its been pointed out.
Another thing to not Hannibal is Puma vet. When it gets the reload bonus it’s extremely potent at chasing down armour once you learn how to stop shoot move rapidly.
Why does axis need the extra micro tax on top of having to use a much squishier unit that also lacks a crew (and related gimmicks)?
I know Puma can do that, but normally path-finding and the mass of AT-inf will make that scenario not that easy like you write/think.
Ostheer can only waist tanks in many sitautions. So often I saw PaK40 oneshotted by Scott or simply get doomes by grenades. Allii with sight will allways dominate multiplayer if players have same skill. They have the better line-up and tools.
Pretty much; against a decent team, OST is in a really tricky position. It's pretty common for late-game USF teams (2v2+) to have 4+ M36s, which makes Panthers basically useless. The only solution to that kind of match-up is a Pak40, but its incredibly vulnerable to any kind of indirect fire or just infantry.
A buffed Puma is an interesting idea, but it doesn't help OST, which is arguably in a much worse situation, since OKW also has the non-doc JP4.
Simply give StuG 60 range (or ability) and give Jackson some acc. as Panther.
This is a pretty good solution. A 60-range STuG would probably need a cost/pop increase (+20f, +3 pop?), but would give Ost a viable TD solution other than Panthers in the very-late game, while also filling that 60-range AT role (which currently only has the Pak40 for non-doc).
I also don't see any major 'knock-on' problems from reducing the M36's moving accuracy to 0.5 (like every other tank). Even if this nerf is 'controversial', it could be done in 2 steps to see how much of an impact it makes. 0.75 -> 0.6 -> 0.5.
How does this not help Ost? A single Grenadier can prevent a Jackson from diving after wounded tanks.
As Hannibal said, the Puma is OKW-only, at least in terms of non-doc.
As for pen, like I said, this really wouldn't help. The M36 has enough HP that even a reductions to near-zero armor (just enough to protect against small arms and 222/Luchs), it really wouldn't change anything. The puma has pretty bad moving accuracy (0.5, like most vehicles), so it won't really be able to chase the M36.
Even then, if we assume a 100% hit rate combined with a 100% pen rate, it'll take the Puma six hits to destroy the M36, which will take around 23 seconds. Meanwhile the M36 can 2-shot the puma - meaning a single hit forces a retreat.
For the Infantry snares, this really only works when Axis is on the defensive, protecting against dives. When being offensive, this just won't do anything. When attacking, no (good) USF player would let your grens get within 30 range of their M36s, either by simply moving the M36 away (it's really fast), or by focus firing the closing 4 model squad with their double-upgraded/vetted rifles. Additionally, by default, when you're closing in on those M36s, you're also closing in on rifles (since they're almost certainly screening for the M36s), which means you're setting up a Gren vs. Rifles at meedium/close fight; that won't go well.
What about making jackson sight dependent on movement?
I mean, its like a passive spottig scopes, but current sight is only when stationary and on the move is half of it, for example.
Jackson will no longer chase reliably, but can defend
While it could work, I think this is just too gimmicky. Not only would it be really frustrating to play with (depending on the severity of the moving penalty), it's just another "we want to nerf the M36 but not really" change.
A similar comparison would be the JP4; for some reason it has a vision 'cone' rather than circle; meaning it can only see in a ~90-degree cone in front of itself, rather than in a full 360 circle. This seems like it would be a pretty big mechanical difference to have, but many players don't even notice it, because other units are giving LOS to the sides/rear of the tank. I only noticed this 'cone' late last year, despite playing OKW since release (or shortly after).
Making infantry and light vehicles a counter to the M36 is a much better course of action than straight up nerfing its combat capabilities.
How would this work, though?
Infantry will be tough, since OST's only AT-Infantry (Pgrens+Schreks) are 4-model squads, and they'd be facing against a screen of (probably vet 2-3, double bar / M1919) riflemen, which are arguably one of the best infantry squads in the game. Meanwhile, OKW doesn't have any non-doc AT squads, short of single-schreck Sturms. Without adjustments to rifles, this likely wouldn't be possible. It's also important to note that, as it currently stands, AT-Infantry is actually a great counter to the M36 (very high burst damage) provided they can get in range.
LVs could be interesting, but I'm not sure how this would actually work. OST's only non-doc LV that makes sense in this situation is the 222, and its incredibly squishy. A 222 simply isn't going to make it to the M36s before being melted by USF's fast-firing ATGs, .50 MGs, or infantry. The Puma could work (due to range / LOS), but adjusting that unit to be a strong counter to the M36, and also have it not ending up being super-viable in packs against literally everything on wheels/tracks would be tricky.
Reducing the M36's armor wouldn't really do anything other than make it look like the M36 has been nerfed. As OP said, the issue 'seems' to be that the M36 can bounce p4 shots; while it can, it only has a 15% chance at long-range, and a 4% chance at short range (110/115/125 pen vs 130 armor).
Is removing that 4 to 15% bounce chance going to suddenly fix the M36, and make it a balanced unit? No, not really. The only purpose of the M36s armor is to protect it from small arms and smaller cannons (222's 2cm, etc.).
The core issue with the M36 is that it simply has too much going for it at the same time:
High pen (220/240/260)
High damage (160)
High range (60)
Has a turret
High mobility (6.5 speed / 3 accel)
High moving accuracy (0.75)
Decent HP (640)
Affordable (400mp/145f)
Non-doc
Simply put, what is it's weakness? By itself, there just isn't one against tanks.
Compare it to OKW's JP4, which is fairly similar in role and price (late-game TD, 400mp/135f).
Now consider that the JP4 is the single best TD for Axis, and instead compare the M36 to a STUG or Panther; the comparison becomes even more one sided.
I've suggested it before, but the main issue seems to be that the M36 needs to counter all axis late-game armor. This is a pretty big problem, since the "area" its covering is absurdly high. If we make the M36 a specialized tool against the Panther/Doc-tanks, then USF would be crushed by earlier medium tanks, and if we made the M36 specialize against those, the USF loses its one counter to Panther/Doc-tanks.
I'm pretty sure this will only make things worse for T4. If T3 is cheaper there would be no point in going T4 ever. T3 units are simply too cost effective and less risky even in team games. Would it not be better to make T4 units more suited for offense.
1. reduce the panthers hp to 800, increase armor to 290 , improve moving acc.
2. make brumbs bbb free but reduce it's standard range to 20-25.
3. give werfer more armor , 320 hp + an mg
Exactly this. The problem isn't the tech cost, it's the units within the tech-tier. In basically every game, having a Stug/Ostwind/P4 is just a better choice than spending more on a Brumm/Panther/PWerfer, even when you ignore the initial price difference (tech+building).
The brumm either needs to be buffed a significant amount, or made much cheaper; otherwise the Ostwind is simply a better choice against infantry blobs.
The panther needs a buff too, since it doesn't have the range or moving accuracy to chase down allied 60-range TDs; so it's much more cost efficient to get a bunch of STuGs instead (which have more range and DPS).
The PWerfer is only really viable against players using a lot of support weapons, or blobbing. A p4 or Ostwind is a better choice in a lot of cases. Note that this isn't because the PWerfer is bad (it's actually pretty good), it's just much more situational than a P4/Ostwind.
isn't that exactly the whole damn point of getting this unit? if it couldn't do that the unit would be useless which seems like what most of u want. just admit it, stop being sly, beating round the bush and say u want this unit deleted or nerfed to uselessness
I said on the first page I wanted the "IR X-ray" replaced with just normal vision, so it respects LOS-blockers; and in theory it would also fix the mini-map bug:
Would it be possible to replace the current "X-Ray vision" with normal sight? It seems to me that using normal vision would fix most, if not all, of the problems the unit currently has.
And yea, I want cheap, nearly uncounterable units removed/nerfed in the game. Hopefully we'll get rid of any and all off-map 'recon flares', too (OKW, UKF).
if that's the case why isn't it used every game? doesn't matter about high level play or low level play, if a unit is OP any player at any skill level would abuse it. its not like other area reveal units, cant be used anywhere on the map without risking itself, doesn't completely reveal so it cant be used together with call in arty, and i said situational because of its limitations, + taking of pop cap space while having no combat effectiveness. Many people would rather have an extra infantry squad or have that bit extra space to pull out a tank, To say its a no-brainer is simply untrue. So please stop exaggerating.
The issue with the unit is cheese and the bug that can occur which can be game breaking if it occurs, i myself have said this unit needs to be redesigned and not what people like you want, which is anything you dislike on axis side is to be nerfed out of the fkin game.
It's not used every game for (probably) one of two reasons:
1. It only provides indirect utility. It's not buffing your DPS, it's not suppressing enemy units, it's not really doing anything directly at all. What it does give you is information which you can then use to make other units more effective. Unfortunately, this type of 'indirect utility' means that few people end up using, despite it being incredibly powerful. It's similar to how the OST Mortar's counter-barrage toggle is rarely used, despite it giving a noticeable range bonus, making it an excellent counter to a ton of different units.
2. As WingZero said, it's map dependent. On smaller maps (i.e. 1v1), it's not as useful, since your normal unit's LOS will let you see a lot of the map anyway. There just isn't a need for shot-blocker ignoring LOS on these types of maps. It only really becomes incredibly powerful on larger, LOS-blocker filled maps.
Additionally, it's important to note that the unit has a few large bugs associated with it that have been present (iirc) since release. At this point, they might be considered "features", but I'm unsure as to their status with the new 'gameplay guidelines'.
so you know urself the unit a barely used, yet u want to nerf it more so its never used again?
srsly for me personally its usefulness is situational and in most cases i would rather want my pop cap being used elsewhere. The unit isn't OP, its just cheesy and im all in for removing cheese as long as changes are reasonable and OKW has maintained some sort of recon.
4v4 games aren't exactly known for their amazing levels of play - most players there are using massively 'sub optimal' builds/strategies, or just aren't paying attention; I usually have something playing on my 2nd screen, and the game volume at basically zero, for example (only in 4v4).
The IRHT also isn't the best choice very early on, since there won't be any units on the field yet that require "LOS". That means that any game that ends before about 15 minutes won't see an IRHT, since it won't be needed.
Also, the price is insanely low; it's -10mp +5 fuel +1 pop when compared to a kubel. Considering keeping a kubel into mid/late isn't common, an IRHT is an excellent replacement.
Off course its super important but from my experience I don't see it as much.
That's extremely strange then, especially considering your rank and the (seemingly) current preference for OKW over OST. I will admit, it's not so popular that every player builds one in every game, but there's usually at least one in a 4v4 game, from my experience (top ~150 4v4 random teams).