when you build such static gun...you can bet that it will be destroyed per callins arty from any allie player...so no...
stop with the Whataboutism. The static howtizer's issue with off map are their own.
the statis howitzer's vulnerability to certain combination of doctrines and ability is not a valid excuse to keep the sexton impotent.
The royal artillery doctrine itself doesn't have recon+ off map.
you never played against a good player who abuse this doctrine, right? i had a replay where i able to arty some minutes the vp so my enemy couldnt cap it...i defenced it without a single near combat unit..only arty and callins.
you should read the other CP in this doc....they are very good and anyoing when someone abuse them
that's called defensive artillery. It's basic tactic 101. How it is abusive? You're spending munition and unit to keep the cap lock up.
Using off map to keep infantry off the vp have been a tactic since forever. Every doctrine with off map or howitzer can do it. The Festung doctrine support, available to the ost since day 0, have flame mortar, howitzer, and sector artillery. The stuka dive bomb is even capable of decapping vp as well.
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The big difference between big howitzer and the 25lbs is that one takes up pop cap and delays armour the other is completely included on the path to armour and if you don't use it you lose nothing.
But if airburst gets the axe I might agree to firing into the Fow because that shit was cancer.
with on map you get the cost of the barrage built into the unit, but you can fire into FOW.
with the british on map, you need to pay munition for each barrage instead of "up front" like the other faction, can you can't fire into FOW. You will run out of munition. You can build cache to pay for the munition drain, but they cost 250 mp now and still require protection.
On most 2v2 map you can still build howitzer right on your own front perch, but cache of any type is a major target for any raiding party.
It's different. That's what asymmetric mean. Axis and Soviet have to maintain on board artillery. USF and UKF have to handle the munition drain (major and base 25 pounder). It's two different system with its own advantage and disadvantage.
Unable to fully gasp and appreciate the difference is why the patch have been moving toward homogenization.
Concentrated barrage used to be able to be called into the fow and it has since been nerfed. It's power was in its ability to for only 100mu wipe a howitzer or key garrison. It much harder to dodge with an immobile howitzer or with an MG that's not near the front. No ability should be called into the fog of war because they reduce the need for scouting.
Concentrated barrage can no longer be called in FOW, stop trying to balance something that no longer exist.
I agree that calling into FOW is broken, but if it's not callable into FOW it needs to have other advantages. It needs to be either powerful, or be munition efficient. Right now it's either. |
I think the sexton range is perhaps a little short, especially when accuracy and scatter is based of range. When you take that into account, the jagdtiger can nearly counter snipe it.
Having said that, the sexton has the benefit of being one of the only units in the game that can counter axis superheavies (Jagdtiger, elefant and KT) due to it's awesome damage and accuracy if you close the distance a little. if you shell it, it has to move making it vulnerable and if they don't, the thing will be down for repairs all game. I've also regularly used it instead of a firefly in combo with churchills against panthers, It deals ridiculous damage and is pinpoint accurate at it's minimum range, people don't expect their panther to lose half of it's health in one shot when they facehug your churchill.. (FYI, 25 pdrs firing flat shots were used for this IRL too. )
Alternatively, If it does need to be buffed, what about a 50-60 munition airburst barrage instead of creeping barrage? Could keep the range the same and just make it the king of flattening stuff within it's range? (Just an idea)
all four howitzer have 1000 penetration. They always deal full damage if you manage to land a direct hit.
It's not a quality unique to the sexton. The priest can do it as well, but no one is going to purposely risk a spg on a frontal assault against something like a KT unless they are desperate.
Both units have only 320 HP. It's not something you want to risk on the frontline.
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Damage > Kills.
And as i said, unless i have look at the wrong files, units like Katyusha or Calliope have a higher xp vet requirement.
Katyusha: 1570f > following vet levels are just a matter of multiplying by 2. For OKW i think it's +25%/+33% on vet 4/5 respectively.
Stuka: 1424
PW: 1256
Calliope: 2020
Land Mattress: 1256
Suxton: 2020
OKW LeFH: 1200
SU 152mm: 1200
OH LefH: 1200
Priest: 2110
IS2 is comparable to Tiger not KT. Pershing should be between IS2 and Panther. (Edit: this is my thoughts prior to looking into it)
That been said:
OH Panther: 2530
Pershing: 2720
OKW Panther: 2730
OH Tiger: 3440
IS2: 3920
KT: 4040
So you are just complaining about "feels".
exp level requirement is calculated from the unit cost. 1 mp = 1 exp and 1 fuel = 4 exp. The formula basically work for most units, but unit cost have drifted over the years and the vet requirement are rarely updated.
towed howitzer have actually relatively low vet requirement because of the 1/4 fuel:mp exchange rate.
They used to cost 600 mp, but later had their cost adjusted to 400mp 50 fuel to make them more affordable.
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I think better choice for arty doc would be total rework. id make it infantry artillery based bit like infantry Company, not full arty.
You say that, but two of the US infantry doc ability are just giving the rifleman sandbag and lmg, something the british get by default.
the other three are mortar carrier, Time on target (concentration barrage), and priest (sexton).
the Royal artillery ability are just not very good
I mean came to early and combined with airburst was bat shit broken enabling the brit to erase any team weapon that gave them trouble from MG to mortar to arty piece in a click for only 100mu because things firing from the Fow highlight themselves.
1) the concentration barrage can't be cast into FOW. This is simple fact. They had sight on you if you were hit by it.
2) the concentration barrage throw a smoke warning, but it doesn't give sight. This is important because the regular shell suffer from a 25% percent FOW penalty. This mean the british need to maintain sight on you to make the concentration barrage effective.
3) the first warning is an auditory warning that happen instantly the moment the ability is cast, with the smoke warning appearing 1.5 second afterward.
4) the first airburst shell will "land" anywhere from 5 to 12 second after the ability is cast, with 3 more shells hitting in similar time interval. Combined with 3) this mean you have anywhere from 3.5 second to 11.5 seconds to get the hell out after the warning smoke and before the first shell. You would usually have less time to dodge against the katyusha
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You should keep in mind that mobile artillery should not be necessarily as good static artillery as they are mobile and much more survivable, and (small benefit) dont need a free engineer to build.
Also what are each's respective costs?
the priest have a range of 180m, which is "enough" for its purpose, but 135 for sexton is way too short.
even at 215 meter, the sexton would still be shorter range than the towed howitzer.
lefh and ml-20: 400 mp 50 fuel 15 pop
priest: 480 mp 115 fuel 14 pop
sexton: 450 mp 100 fuel 15 pop.
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You are missing some of the most important stats like cooldown of barrage ability, scatter ratio, vet bonuses, kill radius.
all four howitzer have a 90s barrage recharge.
kill radius
lefh:~3.538
105:~3.667
ml-20:3.412
sexton: 2.250 (still the worst by more than 1 meter)
scatter ratio(smaller the better)
lefh/ml-20:0.074
priest/sexton:0.125
sexton and priest tied for worst
vet
Priest:
creeping barrage
-20% weapon scatter
-30% recharge time 63 seconds
33% range 239.4 meter
Sexton:
creeping barrage
-40% recharge time 54 seconds
33% range 179.55 meters
lefh(ost):
counterbarrge
-15%weapon scatter
-25% recharge time 67.5 seconds
33% range 332.5 meters
ml-20:
plus one shell
30% faster rotation
-25% recharge time 67.5 seconds
33% range 332.5 meters
lefh (okw):
counterbarrge
-5% scatter 81 seconds
-10% recharge time
+15% rotation
+10% range 275 meters
-10% scatter 14.5% total
-15% recharge time 23.5% total 68.85 seconds
+23% range 35% total 338.25 meters
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It feels to me like too much of OKW already does that, and it struggles to get certain units out as a result, especially if you want to go mechanised. The fuel and time cost to unlock basic stuff like the MG34 is challenging. This proposal would maybe create a less linear faction. Also, once you have teched there are other options anyway (such as leig).
one of the building as in it will unlock by putting down a building.
like the patch initially was going to do. |
Damage, AOE radius
sexton: 160, 6 meters
lefh (wehr & okw): 160, 8 meters
priest: 200m, 7 meters
152mm (soviet): 200, 8 meters
the sexton factually fire the weakest shell of the four on board howitzer. While the raw damage match the axis 105mm, the 105mm have much bigger AOE.
Shell per barrage
Sexton ml-20: 8
lefh: 10
priest: 7
The Priest and ml-20 fire less shell than the lefh, but their shell is significantly stronger.
Range
Sexton : 135
priest: 180
lefh & ml-20: 250
Katyusha: 150
sexton reload (include wind_up&down, reload, cooldown, aim time):4.375s
lefh: 4.625s
priest: 5.92s
ml-20: 5.125 s
accuracy/scatter (this one is misleading due to the difference in range, but it will give context to my proposed buff)
sexton/priest: scatter angel 5, distance_scatter_max 15.5, fow modifier : 1.25
lefh/ml-20: scatter angel 9.25, distance_scatter_max 18.5, fow modifier : 1.75
Suggestion:
increase the sexton's range to 215 and number of shell per barrage to 9.
This would effectively mean the sexton have the weakest shell of the four howitzers, but compensate for the low hitting power with range, accuracy, reload, and being a SPG.
The short range is really the sexton's main weakness as it force the sexton to fire relatively close to the front line. The sexton may fire faster than the other howitzer, but it's nowhere as fast as the axis/soviet rocket artillery.
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just put it behind one of the building. |