Perhaps it could be solved by making the Panzer II Luchs available from the non-upgraded Mechanized HQ, but increasing both Luchs and Mechanized build time by ~60-90 seconds in total so it will roughly arrive at the same time as it does now. Only problem then is that double Luchs becomes 45FU cheaper.
If you don't mind, I will add your idea as an alternative to my #1 point about T4 split, but with no buildable units for unupgraded Mechanized until we figure out a solution.
As is, unactivated Mechanized does give you the Stuka, so Battlegroup builds do get a little more than repair pioneers out of it.
Yeah, but the Stuka coming 45 fuel sooner is simply out of the question. It's already controversial how early it comes compared to other rocket arty (at T4). In team games it's usually easy to defend early Stuka(s) with mines, infantry and Rakettens alone.
OKW has a similar problem to old USF: it's stuck in T0 for a very long time, forcing it to spam out a load of infantry because it has no other option.
The USF overhaul solved this by lowering the initial teching costs to give USF access to a greater variety of manpower based units sooner, while adding sidetechs to preserve vehicle timings.
So here's what I've got:
[...]
I like those changes, good and simple. Sadly the mechanized kinda spoils it. Then again, it could simply not unlock anything (except MG34 from T0) before the upgrade so it can just serve as a cheaper repair station for Battlegroup into Schwerer strats and not change anything for Mechanized strats. This setup would make back teching a lot more forgiving which is nice, since the last major patch did try to adress that but was only able to put it down 5 fuel.
Ostheer Tiger with 5 veterancy, Panzer Tactician and Panzer Commander or MG42 pintle mount as standard for ~10-20% higher price than Ostheer's Tiger. Would be a good alternative to the King Tiger for OKW on maps where one would want a more mobile heavy tank.
Some fun ideas but I'm really aiming for minor changes that fix some core issues rather than completely redesigning the faction, so such changes can be sneaked into future patches like the USF tech changes.
Completely changing units or swapping units is too radical to be considered by Relic to be within scope, IMO.
You propose across the board nerfs to OKW, with a few token buffs to make it look like that's not what you're doing.
Changes 1, 3, 5 and 8 are straight up buffs with 4 and 6 arguably ending up being an improvement too so I have no idea why you would think these are 'nerfs across the board'. The Command Panther call-in is as lame as the old call-in meta and I think every fair person would agree it needs to go too.
I mainly play OKW myself but I will agree with critics that Command Panther, Raketten stealth creep, Artillery Flares, Stuka and arguably OKW early game pressure are cheesy and unfair. I propose these changes to leave their effectiveness the same while making their core mechanics more fair and balanced for everyone.
I think for starters the Advanced Emplacements Forward Assembly repair upgrade automatrons should get a much bigger respawn time after they are killed. That way you could focus your first indirect fire barrage at the back to kill the repair automatrons and use the second barrage to finish the emplacement.
Other than that the only thing that can really work is to try to go somewhere else and come back once you have PzIV/Panther or leFH 18. You can try to smoke Bofors and put OKW incendiary nades on them but a good Brit player will attack ground through the smoke easily so it's still dangerous.
Enter here expecting a complete over the top changes which are not feasible to implement, to actually seeing something which could be done.
Values aside:
1- It requires testing as to whether the LMG needs to be gated down on the Flak HQ upgrade or not.
Same could be said about the JPIV. Wouldn't mind if people get access to a pseudo Stug/Su85 tank destroyer. Specially if T3 gets destroyed.
2- Not sure about what to do with Volks. On starting manpower, you could reduce initial mp by 40/50 and reduce the cost to build each SwS HT by 25/30
3- Make it 55 and put it at crawl old stealth Zis gun speed. Basically to mostly let it rotate.
4- Changes to Command PV are probably on the sight.
5- Same with small adjustments to KT.
6- No comments on Stuka.
7- Or make it so it can only target frontline territories? Expect flak from most "fanboys" if the ability is changed in any way.
8- ISG vet has always been bad so yeah. Whatever changes would be good.
Good to see you guys like most changes. Agreed on 1. I think 3 would need testing too - 60 with only rotating in camo or 55 with crawling speed are both feasonable.
Point 2 (OKW opening) is a pretty large discussion on its own and it might be too big to change along with the rest. It might be good to turn that into a 'phase two' concept and have a look at it at a later time. Otherwise I also like the idea of adjusting starting manpower and reducing SwS so I've added it to the OP.
Just would add Kubel: Lower DPS in exchange for higher survival ability, so it can be a good scout
Also buff the damn Puma accuracy
I've thought about the Kubel but I'm a bit divided. It's next to useless in team games but pretty good in 1s for (back)capping. If more people feel like it needs to be changed I'll add it to the list.
Puma accuracy I'm also divided about. I feel like it's the only thing that keeps it balanced as with good micro and a bit of luck it can already reliably take on (lower end) medium tanks.
Obers were suggested to be put in the Med HQ and given the Sturmpioneer's Panzershreck package to act as Panzerjägers as well, sort of like the Ost's Panzergrenadiers.
I've also been thinking about moving the Sdkfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack to Special Operations as an accuracy buff unit to Panthers and Obersoldaten STG44, and moving Obersoldaten to fill the spot in Battlegroup Headquarters.
However, this (along with a Panzershreck upgrade for Obersoldaten) would be quite a significant change and I'm not sure if Relic wants to be this radical. The USF tech changes were very minimal. I've aimed to keep the proposed changes in the OP to be fairly minimal too. I have now specified that in the OP.
After snares added to UKF and the tech changes to USF, I've been thinking about several changes to OKW to overhaul some aspects of the faction so that everyone (both OKW players and Allied players) will have a better experience, while leaving the faction power level roughly the same.
Aim of changes:
- less cheese;
- adress some underperforming units;
- spread OKW fighting power more evenly across early/mid/late game;
- replace cheesy mechanics with fair ones, but ultimately leave units/abilities as powerful as they are now as not to mess with faction balance;
- have minimal impact (no radical changes).
For easy reading I will present changes like patch notes.
Obviously all numbers like prices and stats are subject to change. Focus the discussion on the ideas themselves.
Prologue: dislodging the Mechanized Headquarters meta
Mechanized (Luchs + Puma) is the dominant choice in the current meta. I believe this is because
Volksgrenadiers - even with their high cost-effectiveness - are not enough to hold back Allied vetted/upgraded/elite infantry and
OKW has unreliable manpower based AT, with a lack of Panzerschrecks and an ATG that is awkward to use.
Which makes the majority of players use the Luchs to bleed the opponent of manpower and the Puma as a mostly reliable AT unit.
How to make Battlegroup HQ more attractive in the face of Mechanized HQ's advantages?
With OKW's limited variety in units I don't think it's possible to make Battlegroup healthily match up with Mechanized by shifting units around, as the tier structure with the Puma and one of the AI lights will always be prefered over the other.
Therefor I think it's best to try to indirectly make Battlegroup more attractive by splitting the T4 tech in half and by making the Raketten more reliable (longer range, better durability).
If Obers can come soon enough, together with a more reliable ATG, it might be able to contest Mechanized. Battlegroup will indirectly benefit by becoming more attractive due to its cheaper teching cost, in order to get the Schwerer Panzer HQ up faster. Putting the Ostwind and Hetzer behind the same "T3.5" tech could make it even more attractive.
To do this I propose the following changes to the Schwerer Panzer HQ and the Raketten:
1. Tier 4 - Schwerer Panzer Headquarters tech split
I would like to see T4 split up into two techs, so Obersoldaten can hit the field earlier than they currently do. Doctrinal 'T3.5' units are now also available at stock T4 so they can become viable again. All other units including the tech structure AA gun are locked behind side tech.
T4 stock headquarters now costs ~100MP / 60FU to construct. AA gun is disabled. Set up time halved.
A Stock T4 can produce Obersoldaten (no LMG/STG upgrade).
A Stock T4 can now also produce the doctrinal Flammpanzer Hetzer and the Ostwind.
Upgrade Activate Panzer Reserves now available for 100MP / 60FU. Unlocks: Obers LMG/STG upgrade; tier structure flak gun enabled; Jagdpanzer IV, Panzer IV, Panther. Upgrade time is the other half of original HQ set up time.
King Tiger now requires all trucks set up and the Activate Panzer Reserves upgrade activated (same timing/resources as now).
If need be, timings for the "T3.5" vehicles (Ostwind & Hetzer) can be adjusted by moving costs over from upgrade price to stock T4 price (this would require some testing). With the current numbers the Ostwind would be 15 fuel faster than Ostheer's Ostwind.
2. Rakettenwerfer 43
I think this unit should be standardised so it's less annoying to play both with and against.
Range increased from 50 to 55-60. Aim time slightly buffed (so it's more responsive against moving targets).
Camouflage now only available when stationary. Unit can not move while cloaked, only rotate. ZiS automatic ambush camouflage could be used (automatically activates when stationary).
Improve durability by increasing crew from 4 to 5 models.
Optional: to have the Rakettenwerfer remain a unique unit, it could get lowered damage (120 or 100) but have the same high penetration on all ranges. This would be historically accurate since it fired HEAT rockets that do not lose penetration with distance.
Other changes
3. OKW Opening combat power
With Obersoldaten being able to be fielded much quicker, there is room to tone down OKW's starting power. I'm not exactly sure how though.
This would be quite a significant change (in terms of impact) so I imagine this as a 'phase two' sort of change that comes after the tech changes. It's an entire discussion on its own. Some thoughts:
I think Sturmpioneers should stay the way they are. It adds diversity to the early game.
It would probably be possible to shuffle around with starting manpower (lower it basically) and reduce cost of SwS trucks. This would make OKW less oppressive early game because they would no longer be able to outproduce other factions with their third squad.
Changes to be defined at a later moment after the other changes have been implemented.
4. Command Panther
One of the last remaining relics from the call-in meta days. Should be moved to tech so OKW doesn't have a get-out-of-jail card for skipping tech. Given that it lacks combat veterancy, it's arguably not that much better than a normal Panther to justify its high cost now that it's no longer a premium call-in.
Command Panther now needs to be built in T4.
Price decreased to ~510MP / 200FU.
CP requirement down to 0CP.
Sight range from 55 to 45.
5. King Tiger
This unit underperforms for its price and role. Some small changes and buffs should make the unit more reliable while not becoming OP again.
Main gun AOE profile changed to match Brummbar style AOE profile (but lower damage and spread than Brummbar). Scatter slightly buffed.
Spearhead ability moved from vet 3 to vet 1. Combat Blitz ability moved to vet 3.
Veterancy requirements lowered by 20-30%.
If possible (probably not), the King Tiger should get its coaxial MG34 (it currently only has the hull MG and the pintle MG).
6. SdKfz 251 "Stuka zu Fuß"
Reduce wiping potential of rockets a bit so it matches other rocket artillery, while making the strike more reliable, by spreading out AOE. The power of the unit should stay roughly the same in the end.
AOE profile changed so damage distribution is spread out more. Less complete squad wipes, more reliable hits.
IMO, along with all other artillery units, remove cooldown bonusses from veterancy.
7.1; Artillery [recon] Flares (Special Operations Doctrine)
Uncounterable recon that can be placed anywhere on the map is deemed unfair due to obvious reasons. I'd like to introduce a complete overhaul to this ability.
Sight provided by recon flares removed. Flares are now a visual clue only to warn enemy players of the ability being used.
Ability now gives +100% sight (or any other number) to all units within ability area.
Area of effect increased by ~50%.
7.2; Alternative to 7.1 - Artillery Flares (Special Operations Doctrine)
Ability can no longer be put anywhere on the map.
Ability will now automatically reveal selected enemy frontline territory.
Alternatively, ability can reveal all enemy frontline territory (similar to British flares).
8. Sturmpioneer timed anti-building demolition charge
OKW has no real anti-garrisson (as in demolishing them) tools. There are some units/abilities that can be used to some effect but they either take a long time (ISG), a lot of resources (4-5 Volks flame nades), or both (Stuka or SP Flamers, also doctrinal). This means OKW is especially defenseless against FHQs in team games.
Ability "Anti-building demolition charge" added to Sturmpioneers.
Costs 80 munitions.
Only damages buildings.
Has a 10 second timer so demo can not be used against enemy units.
9. SdKfz 251/20 Infrared Halftrack
This unit's ability to 3D spot enemies in the FOW is quite cheesy and has too much synergy with indirect fire units (because you can see the exact unit positions and formations). And even worse, it creates the bug where it will make some enemy units permanently visible on the minimap and strategic map.
Removed the unit's scanning mechanic. The rotating infrared searchlight now only serves as a visual clue of the unit role and its identification.
Replace the scanning mechanic by a passive ability to detect all enemy units on the tactical map and the minimap. This works identical to the 223's vehicle detection, but for all units.
Stumpioneers are also strong in the first 5 minutes of the game, but nobody says a thing about them. It's just that we all got used to seeing the early game USF getting steamrolled and now we can't accept that they have alternatives and a stronger start because of that.
Sturmpioneers early game combat power has been a discussion for ages. Secondly the Assault Engineers are stronger than them as shown by the stats I posted earlier.
Thirdly, Assault Engineers go up against enemies that aren't as well equiped to deal with them as the Allies can deal with Sturmpioneers. USF have Riflemen with good near and mid range DPS, Soviets have 6 men squads and the Brits have T0 HMGs and the UC. Sturmpioneers are simply less problematic than 2-3 Assault Engineer openings because they have less impact.
I just think that it's not a solution to lock their flamethrower behind tech. If we really want to adjust them, let's increase their cost or put them on cooldown. Or even better, change their stats, decrease their damage output. These are some ideas.
Again, these changes would negatively affect their entire game performance when only the first 5 minutes are the problem. The solution should therefore be searched for in delaying the timing of their power creep. Giving them 1.0 target size (0.9 at vet1) and putting the flamethrower behind tech would do exactly that.
OKW overhaul that gets rid of all the cheese (like raketten stealth creep or walking Stuka nukes) and fixes some underperforming aspects like Obersoldaten timing and King Tiger
Netherlands
Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
