cons beat volks without upgrades? Pretty sure every game since the release of the omw says otherwise but OK... So until okw place their first truck cons are viable against then that's great to know! The problem with "okw has to spend munitions!" and "cons are fine against up upgraded volks" is that the former doesn't matter if you yourself do not have the option to escalate, and there is LITERALLY not a single reason aside from not YET having the munitions to not upgrade your volks to STGs. Not a single reason. There is no trade off no drawback no incentive to not upgrade. At. All. Ever. As obnoxious as double BAR is there is at least a modicum of thought required in getting them.you have to decide when you can spare the fuel (vs decide when you want to start progressing towards tanks) you need to decide to allocate fuel away from a shock unit (vs getting them on the road to said shock unit) then you need to give up map control and pressure by retreating to base (vs being able to upgrade on the front, on the way to the front, at your FRP, while in combat, in the enemies base, on a different map!) then you have to shell out an off map worth of munitions and can still lose the weapons and possibly have to do it again! Volks STG is like the kindergarten of infantry upgrades. You don't have to do a damn thing but show up and get massive benifits with zero drawbacks. While other mainline are taking tests and learning algebra volks are shitting themselves and fingerpainting. Or so to speak. The only way to make the STG any easier would be just to simply have them start with them. It's literally the only way.
Oh and also 5mp per model doesn't mean shit when cons are harder to hit, don't get a vet 1 rec acc buff and have the shittiest support options in the game, with the exception of penals who simply replace cons because cons don't bring anything to the table as support themselves really. |
Ok grenadiers get better veterancy bonuses.
but grens are different because they are only 4 men and need that accuracy to have any DPS at all!
but for real, the most of their vet nerfs came as a by product of the god awful idea to have shreks on them iirc (seriously i hope the people who thought that was a great idea never work on a game again) and then another wave after the great vet purge of OKW where everything got obliterated and anything unique was removed, where the rakk lost its +5 range with vet! (but kept creeping death....)
id be on board for a reinforcement of volks vet to align them with cons (And provide a roster unique role that isnt jack of all trades and also a master of all those trades and actually the only infantry you literally ever need) if they lost the STG. they should become formidable with vet, not with a no brainer upgrade that enables lack luster vet... |
Top tier has nothing to do with sheer power but tech tree allocation.
It's absolutely not pure semantics because behind that there's an higher teching cost. The moment su76 and jp4 will come at the exact same time Katitof REEEEEing will be justified
top tier can be interpreted either way. it IS semantics. the t34 is NOT a top tier tank, but it is in the final tier of tech. see how that works? the flammenhetzer isnt a better flame vehcle than the ost flame HT, the flame HT is absoulty a op tier garrison melter, yet its in t2....
a top tier commander means its better than the rest, the top tier of a cake is the highest level. the katy is a final tier rocket arty, the walking stuka is a top tier rocket arty. the maxim is a higher tech machine gun, but the mg42 is top tier.
context. |
i too think that volks have a bit too much going for them, they are like cons that can fight.
building a defensive position? use volks
enemy garrison? volks
marauding tank needs snared? volks
need a beefy AI specialist that is good at all ranges ad on the move but will devastate any enemy that tries to close? yup. volks
cheap enough unit to have lots of presence? volks again...
counter blob? why not use volks?
okw has 3 core infantry units but its mostly volks that see ground time, its in part because the others need adjustment, but in part because you dont REALLY need anything else.
sturms should be made cheaper but lose 2 stgs with an option to specialize as AT (shrek, maybe tellers), AI (4 slightly stronger STGs, flame nades and a bonus against garrisons) or support (sweeper and repair bonus)
obers need to come sooner, thats really what it boils down to there. i personally like the split schwere idea where the jp4, p4 (maybe an unskirted version, or snub nose) and obers are available a bit sooner and then an upgrade for the gun and panther and KT and ober lmg34 so that they get a bit of field time before vetted upgunned allied infantry are running amok.
volks should fin in the middle, something to flesh out in between the 2 heavy lifters who naturally progress from CQB to long range combat as the former becomes more risky and less effective
but anything would be better than volks, volks, volks, volks, volks.... |
Top tier and final tier aren't interchangeable. Is t0 called bottom tier? I know conscripts are bottom tier infantry, but they are Also t0. is the Maxim of greater caliber than the mg42 because it comes from a tech building and costs the same? No! (even though grens are better than cons despite the same......) is the werfers a better rocket arty than the walking stuka? Is the T34 of the caliber of a panther?.. Is this REALLY a balance discussion? Like were all here talking about this? Bloody fuck. |
I think smines are fine. They take awhile to lay, are expensive and don't do a pile of damage. They are a deterrent. Designed to allow the OST to focus their units elsewhere. |
Make up your god damm minds, you either want something balanced gameplay wise or you want something historicall authentic.
So Vipper I don't see a problem in them getting a 2 AT rifle package that is explained why because late war dwindling resources.
I don't know, figure it out amongst yourselves.
AT rifles are fine. They didn't stop using things just because new things were invented. Okw has the mg42 despite being an end war faction and OST has the 42 while being the early war faction. If an AT rifle fits the balance that's fine. A Shrek will NOT be balanced as we have already seen... Although I don't think a simple snare will cut it if they have AT rifles as getting pushed around is always an option.... Although okw always has access to an AT gun so who knows. |
Hey I only brought it up because Vipper did, I'm all for what's more practical and balanced gameplay wise while also keeping historical authenticity in mind if not accuracy.
So I guess 1 schreck is probably the most probable route if an AT upgrade is made.
So volks spam of old but with an extra model? I know everyone hates team games but some people still have nightmares of when durable Shrek slinging, cheapish reinforcing squads. Although passive sprint at vet would be fine I'm sure.... |
I'm sorry vipper, I don't see it. Think you could post a consolidated "plan" so to speak for them? Is it all 5 g43? Same vet? same target size? Same tools? |
Having 5 men long range grenadiers vs 4 Lmg grenadiers will simply boiled down to one being superior to other and no brainier choice.
Doctrinal upgrades should be designed for synergy with stock units (even if that comes with multiple restrictions) and not simply replacing them. So they need to bring more to table or/and add strategical/tactical options and utility.
They both bring different things. The lmg is centralized dps designed for bursting down models, the drawback being fragility. 5 man squads are potent, still quite accurate but locking out the lmg is a tall order especially when the enemy is still arming themselves, the most obvious advantage is durability but the new free med kits is pretty bloody cool too. They both have a place I feel and making them rifles might negate choice because a 5 man, accurate on the move unit in itself if great (see rifles who are designed to operate with no support at all and stg volks who are designed to make support obsolete) |