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didint read any replies. i think its armour or gun should be improved slightly. if armour id say up to 400, if armour id like to see a moving accuracy buff to it can pressure a bit better. its not an awful tank by any measure, but for how easily its countered i find it slightly lacking. |
The only squads where upgrades are not mandatory at some point are squads that have powerful or specialist weapons stock.
Conscripts went for a long time without stock upgrades and suffered for it. The only thing that allowed soviet infantry to stay competitive was doctrinal elite infantry and penals. That's despite the theoretical "utility" cons provided. Take away the 7 man upgrade and cons will be rarely taken without doctrinal upgrades just like they used to be.
cons were fine in the oh matchup, it wasnt until okw came along that that got nuked. the okw with the elite engineer and obersoldaten whos ai potential lives up to the name. them and of coures volks who have traded incredibly well against cons since the start (which imo was mostly fine, given the utility of cons)
now, you take away the 7th man and soviet will suffer, but thats because there would be no elite infantry to pick up the slack. you are comparing volks and cons like there isnt obers hitting the same time 7 man does... it doesnt blend because unlike CHANGING the volks upgrade, there isnt anyhting to make up for a con nerf.
The power dynamic between the stg44 and allied infantry is a good one. Volks trade poorly with rifles initially, situationally poorly against IS, and evenly against conscripts. Volks recieve a potential power spike if you havent been dumping tons of munitions into grenades. Allied factions recieve a power spike shortly following this via racks or in the case of Soviets, elite infantry. This dynamic is very important as it forces the OKW player to weigh the costs of throwing tons of low damage grenades early on. UKF and USF dont have repeating munitions costs early on(unless you go for grenade tech) which let's them bank for rack upgrades or medkits. Soviets is a different story, but this timing and munitions expenditure dynamic is made possible by the ebb and flow of infantry power. Taking away volks power spike will disrupt that, and I have not seen a good reason that should be the case except that you find the upgrade "boring"
If you feel the upgrade is UNBALANCED, then that is another story.
i do find the upgrade unbalanced and strangles the potential of okw faction design. the damn thing was literally stapled on without any thought when shrek was removed and it shows. such a move shouldnt be dictating infantry balance.
You know what else is a boring upgrade? Pintle machine guns. Or rear echelon sweepers. Or cavalry rifle thompsons. Or UKF tank commanders. Sometimes boring upgrades are necessary to allow units to reach desired performance levels without being free.
pintles id argue actually are optional, they offer a bit of dps but they come at a time when thinking about munitions for off maps ect, they dont have as high an impact as a 3rd minute weapon upgrade on a squad thats going to be around for nother 30 minutes or so. echelon sweepers too, while valuable, one might decide to keep that extra firepower.
both of these items are actually optional and one might elect to forgoe them, unlike stgs, which you will not ever forgoe, ayt any point. they are not a question of if, but when
You may as well raise volks cost to 300 and reinforce to 27 but give them a stat increase roughly equivalent to the stg upgrade. At least that way they'll scale properly and have a similar investment in cost over time while not having a "brainless upgrade".
thats ludacris. come on, i know you are better than that. granted the thought it took for you to type that is likley approximately the amount given initially to the stg upgrade before implementation...
Edit: I'm unsure as to why you are referring to volks as "durable". Once upon a time they had a recieved accuracy of like 0.6, but those days are long past us. In fact they are the second squishiest stock mainline infantry after grenadiers, even after vet. With vet, they match a Vetted rear echelon for durability.
well, id say they are durable because in the short list of stock axis squads from 2 factions volks are literally the only 1 with more than 5 men and excluding the doctrinal ability ost has that can make squads 5 men because...well obviously thats a special case, there are 3 other axis squads that get as many men (ostroppen of course have 6 men then ass grens and fussies have 5 but both of whom can up the ante to 6 men)
volks also get a 10% rec acc reduction at vet 1 which certainly doesnt hurt... nor does the self healing
id love to see their vet returned to something more substantial and unique, like i said seeing the vet 3 self heal back. as a matter of fact id make that a priority coupled with the mp40 change.
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You would still want volks for the map control and the snare, and if they had the Mp40 the smoke not to mention pop cap and wipe resistance.
We do seem to have a different definition, but even using yours I've established that elite infantry has a bit more leeway due to being more exclusive. You are going to get FG42s for falls as well, but as elite infantry it's more a function of allowing them to be more accessible than a flat upgrade. If that makes sense.
In your hypothetical, yea you would still get cons even if you had shocks and guards for the utility they bring (guards behind cover are even tougher than in the open) and for map control and support fire on your shocks. You would probably even upgrade one or two to ppshs just to make them more threatening to draw fire off your high bleed shocks. If they had Svts of course you would build them because then they are better chasing and better skirmishing. You would likely not leave a single squad unupgraded if you had svts because why would you? That's the issue.
As I said, look at their rifles if they need it, but no upgrade should be a viable path and a poorly designed flat upgrade should be addressed. It would be different as a doctrinal ability or on a less plentiful unit but such an upgrade hitting so soon on cheap, multipurpose, durable infantry that is already alongside specialists is just shitty design. |
You have 5 men at Panzerfusiliers too.
Given the fact that a single Shrek deals more damage than a single super bazooka (120>100) and that it is more likely to penetrate because of more penetration at all ranges and the common rule that allied medium tanks have commonly lower armor values, I would say - Yes, double shrek is roughly comporable with triple super bazooka in its outcome.
Triple Super Bazooka is only better when the armor of the target is so low, that all three super bazookas automatically penetrate.
Fussies do also exist, and they are the exception. You don't base balance around exception you either accept them or you balance them.
Elite zooks also get increased pen than normal zooks and retain their rof. I'd argue a super zook as roughly equal to a shrek. It's less reliable but has more potential. Additionally super zooks are on more durable squads meaning even though they are less capable of penning they will stick around longer and shoot more on top of already simply shooting more. No good axis player is going to gamble a dive through super zooks any more than an allied player would shreks. |
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Triple super zook has more power than a double shrek pgren. It's also 5 men meaning less risk of a wipe. Pgrens are powerful but a number of factors make them risky as well as expensive. They are fine |
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Axis shreks are a non issue because with the exception of fussies they are on expensive 4 man squads meaning they pay in blood for the power. Piats and zooks Alcan all be on cheap 5 man squads and in the case of Zook, if put on expensive squads they get a better version (this is a good design) shreks start out on an elite squad so they start out "super" |
Because doctrine isn't exactly meta.
Its all about PFs now.
Plus like... Why pick an upgrade that refines your role when you have a stock upgrade that makes you better at all ranges? That's kinda exactly the issue. Flipping the stg and Mp40 packages makes firestorm more attractive. Would anyone pick ppshs if cons had stock svts? |
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mp40 volks wouldnt step on sturms because sturms time on the front is limited. and you wouldnt be losing any role that volks fill, you would simply have to chose which role to fill instead of one upgrade to fill them all.thats bad design. the fact that an elite doctrinal upgrade doesnt see action because the cheap unit's non doc upgrade kinda makes my point even...
for scaling, the idea is that giving all your volks mp40s is ill advised. you will want a few to defend certain areas, or flank and attack but chanign them all would be stupid and leave you vulnerable...this is the idea. not upgraded should be a viable option as well and im not against looking at voks rifles to make it so. smoke also grantes utility nd would help in a multitude of scenarios. its powerful enough that itnwas removed from rifles.... being less vulnerable to mgs for example would be reason enough to get one or two even in open maps (which, okw finds difficult due to their lack of smoke....)
STGs are a no more brainless upgrade then BARs, LMG34, DP28, or 7man conscript. And I dont see how the fact 7 man comes late makes it any less brainless. Your argument is that the MP44s are a boring upgrade, how does their timing change that-or rather how does timing make the 7 man upgrade any more "interesting"? (Hint, it doesnt but it's no less necessary for it)
DP-28s increase long ramge firepower and remove any notion of mobility. thats a trade off, but its also on elite infantry which as ive said earlier there should be more flexibility on the power level of the upgrade as the unit is restricted by volume unlike volks who will be your most plentiful infantry unit.
Ober lmg34 is kind of an odd example because it was never intended to be an upgrade. the cost was added to slow the domination of obers, but was intended to make it so the expensive late game 4 man infantry squa would have stacked dps. it was designed for the unit and is again restricted in access and impact by volume.
BARs were designed to make up the lack of elite infantry in the usf lineup. rifles were to scale all game as there is nothing to augment them. personally i would liketo see an access overhaul on them to highlight officers a bit better, but thats another dicussion. and 7 man cons at least reflect the intended role of the unit. 17dps increase isnt nuts and its still a bolt action rifle, the effects are great but the impact isnt high AND its delayed.
to the last point, about the elite close range squad being a better choice than the cheap flexible close rage generalist and the long rage elite specialist being a better choice for long range combat.... duh? you are better than that.... its like complaining that con ppshs dont make them as good a cqb squad as shocks and when they keep their rifles they are not as good at range as dp-28 guards.... except of course none of the things listed are actually doctinal..
That's OKW as a faction problem, faction design makes it so weapons like that is mandatory as they have limited and delayed access to support weapons.
delayed access to support wepons? they get their HMG at the same time they get their STGs and if you go med you get the leig unlocked at the same time as well.... they hit at the same time, how can the upgrade be mandatory to make up for unlocking the units at the same time?
if anything the mp40+ smoke would be a good change BECASUE of the way the leig is unlocked. it would allow you to go mech and still have smoke opening up more diverse play.
Volks are supposed to position relatively depending on what they are fighting.
Long range against cons and rifles, CQC against tommies.
The point is there, you just chosen to ignore it.
unit with an upgrade shouldnt have that flexibility (except BAR units, becasue thats their design from the start) there is a reason you cant get g43s and lmg42s on grens at the same time anymore. good at all range on cheap plentiful core units is a bad design. imagine if cons had svts stock. would not be a good design...
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What you are forgetting is volks don't have to carry the late game. They have obers. Just like the stgs shouldn't be hitting so soon because they have sturms. I agree a LATER stg wouldn't be a big a problem but I maintain the design of the upgrade is simply shit. Relic dedicated an entire game changing patch to weapons having range trade offs. If there IS a weapon that is good at all ranges it should be restricted to special units, like pgrens and falls. The trade off should be that dropping models hurts, not on the cheapest units a faction can field and also an upgrade that carries the best weapons over. It's poorly designed.
Buffing vet could be sufficient because again, volks armt the only thing you can field. An anvil doesn't work without a hammer. If volks weren't budget rifles they could look at getting vet 3 self heal back giving them incredible field control. You could possibly even look at linking it to tank requisitions + medics unlocked. Okw has tech more flexible than OST. Things could be tweaked with a tech progression. Things like 2 tiers or a tier and an upgrade could be used to fine tune Improvments. There's no reason for volks to not always be useful but in a faction with not 1 but 2 potent elite squads they don't need to be the punch of the army. Volks could have their weight on vet but still improve via tech.
As for mp40 volks not scaling, I disbelive that as well. The upgrade gives them reduced target size as well as smoke-something that is in short supply for OKW and would absolutely provide value and synergy within the faction. Hell having accessible smoke could even help sturms later on.
In regards to the 7 man being a flat upgrade I won't deny you that, however there is a drawback that isn't present in any other weapon upgrade around and that is requiring full tech to unlock. What's more, it's actually thematic to the unit AND reinforces their role without stepping on the roles of doctrinal units OR stock units.
If volks say had an upgrade that allowed them to fight more fiercely in friendly territory for example, even if it was a flat buff at least it keeps sturms and obers as unique entities and also gives volks an identity. There is a lot to play around with and a redesign could be a lot of fun once it's accepted that 2 min literally improve every combat Stat possible upgrade on cheap plentiful unit isn't a well designed upgrade.
I want more dynamic play from the faction that has the most units around. I want less "volks do literally everything you need infantry" and more mix/matching. More diversity is never a bad thing. |
First. Allied upgrades were not because of STGs, bolster and weapon racks existed when volks still had shreks.
racks were a bad design at start,but could have been refined instead of simply reduced. the idea keep in mind was that generalist infantry, at great cost, fill the role of elite infantry as the sock lineup lacked it. volks vet reduction started in part because of the issue where the shrek generated additional vet because of armour exp value but it was gutted entierly in the most recent rework along with every vet in every unit.
bloster as well was a shit and i mean SHIT designed ability... i mean "lets increase the dps and health of an already elite unit by 25% with no drawbacks at all, and also make it a global cause thats brilliant and totally wont destroy any possibility of balancing anything related to the unit... oh and less also give it weapon racks" screams WTF are they thinking.... but i digress there. it was a given that a faction released was going to be broken OP because it inspires people to buy the dlc....
The fact that 7 man cons fare poorly against obers has no bearing on if Volks should be able to fight cost effectively in general.
well yes and no. whats important is that the faction has an answer to the threat. volks will fight just fine against cons until they get 7 man, which requires a whole tech.... which would be when obers and armour would hit. cons and volks could easily be matched all game until the extra manpower for the soviet gives them the advantage where okw turns to superiour quality instead of quantity. timing is important here. the enemy puts more men in their squad you get a squad that can quickly kill men faster. they hit around the same time...
The fact k98 volks get stomped by penals does not mean conscripts should be weaker.
it would if cons got SVTs by default and also didnt need vet or extra cost to unlock their quickly thrown molitov that also throws fire meaning any infantry they face outside of cover get filled with holes and anything in cover gets burned with minimal risk until they leave cover so they can be filled with holes..... and also penals were not a divergent tech from other support units and instead guaranteed access-- you know what? soviet and okw dont really have the same tech structure to compare this properly lets settle with factions with AI infantry should be leaning on them for AI duties, not simply having them as an alternative investment to their mainline. cons and volks are the most alike as 2 opposing factions units are in the entire game, from weapons to abilities to intended role. this is why they are so comparable, but volks also have guaranteed support of both mgs and elite infantry, this is important to consider when thinking about volks. they are not rifles whos stock "elite infantry" consists of a rifle squad, but one model has a thompson and at max vet will sprint (very very exciting)
In addition, cons are not having their cover bonus removed, it is only getting reduced and it still doesnt change the fact that they have 17% more firepower at all ranges then a stock con squad to begin with.
yes and when does that hit the field exactly? ah yes... the latests of any upgrade of the game.... and instead of concentrating DPS, like all the other upgrades of the game, it grants an extra man. dont pretend that 7 man isnt balanced by being delayed until the tech you build your tanks from when lmg42 come from the first tech after grens hit the field, STGs come from the first tech you build, BARs and BRENs come at variable times but can be slapped on anything but all of them make losing models less impactful on DPS.... 7 man is good, for sure, but its balanced by literally being in the armies top tech (or after ~70 fuel in sidegrades and 2 tiers of tech)
Volks vet nerfs began when they still spotted shreks as it was silly you could have an ultra durable spammable squad with affordable reinforcement that could engage vehicles effectively. It is incorrect to address volks vet nerfs solely-or even majority based- on the stg upgrade.
as i said earlier, while they did receive nerfs to the vet when a 235mp squad could gain vet in 0.000005673 seconds because appearently a cheap spammable unit having guranteed pen against all stcok armour is a great idea, they had it right rogered since the stgs, something im confident wouldnt have happened if any thought at all was applied when replacing the shrek upgrade.
The fact is that with the exception of brits, all factions have at least one squad that is moderately effective at all ranges with a slight emphasis towards one range or another. Penals(and i suppose cons in a way) rifles, pgrens and volks.
I dont think this is a bad thing though cons and penals step on each others toes a bit. With exception of pgrens due to timing and cost, you have bread and butter all range infantry that are flexible enough to fit various roles but specialize in none, thereby creating the long range and short range niches that other units can fill.
ok at all ranges vs better at all ranges are a different entirely.
pgrens you keep at range and focus fire. they bleed heavily and lose dps quickly. if they try and close unfavorably they will take heavy losses, but will also lose at range to rifle infantry
penals are admittedly not ina good spot imo, i have said so in the past for the same reason as stg volks but at least HEAVILY pay for thier power with map control (you can have 3 volks on field while the enemy builds their 2nd penal and you will STILL have your sturms vs their CE... massive disparity in potential map control as well as gooning potential)
there are drawbacks.
and rifles were actually designed to perform like that. its intended and the entier faction was built on that.
whats more, none of those squads can easily force the enemy out of a preferred position like volks can from a mile away int he blink of an eye. this wouldnt be an issue if it wasnt stacked with a STG that allows volks to engage on their terms but also punish an enemy trying to engage on their terms. closing over fire hurts. cover fighting in fire hurts.
you have bread and butter all range infantry that are flexible enough to fit various roles but specialize in none, thereby creating the long range and short range niches that other units can fill.
this is it though, volks with stgs dont become just flexible infantry that are flexible to fit and specialize nowhere, the specialise upclose and are still flexible to fight at range, except you cant cover fight them due to flame nades. they are simply better than anything because they mix flexibility AND specialization. you need elite assault infantry to fight them upclose, and anything less than shocks will get chewed up closing, then get mulched after they closed. thats poor design.
swapping the stg for the mp40 would ACTUALLY create diversity because its not one unit to do everything.
If I'm playing soviets and go guards, cons and flame engineers are my close range infantry tools. If I go shocks instead, they function as my long range support.
The same applies to STG volks. If I choose to grab an extra sturmpioneer I use my STG volks for long range support, if go for double obers they support the obers by taking up the short range/screening role.
yes relative positioning is a thing, thats intended and very much a good thing. there isnt anything wrong with dynamic combat, but as i said above stg volks are able to deny their enemy the ability to leverage that while retaining the capacity themselves.
and by making the upgrade require some thought by instead of making it better at all ranges but instead specialize in one you create diversity and relative positioning. like combining ppsh cons and saving some for weapon drops or to save muni for other things both bring differnt things to the table but both may be at the table at the same time, fighting for the same plate even!
in your scenario, if your sturms get pushed off you take up the slack with the volks and dont lose your potential to thrash the enemy up close, lose your shock and you are in for a really tough time in the cqb fight with just cons.
for ypur second scenario mp40 volks would do the same thing as the stg volks, they just couldnt seamlessly transition as they please and the enemy would have a decision to make on how to engage you
there is a difference between NEEDING to use combined arms and electing to for the sake of it
these units are your line infantry, a generalist role that is too important to just give up. You wouldnt force a us player to choose between only HVAP rounds or only HE rounds on a sherman.
no but you wouldnt slap a combo shell that is HE and HVAP at the same time, and also give it WP and TWP on the sherman either or you would never see a jackson no matter how good it is, nor a scott no matter how fast it kills because you have one unit that can fill oll the roles reasonably well and dictate how it fights.
im not saying make volks useless, im saying they shouldnt be a skeleton key to everything all the time when tere are other tools designed to fill certain roles. im saying lest have a little fucking thought proccess behind upgrading our units not simply "do i have the munitions because this power spike is going to be so fucking awesome" and that goes across all factions, not just the one with a no drawback, early hitting weapon upgrade on already versatile infantry.
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