volks need to not scale as powerfully/cheaply as they do
if they're going to beat conscripts in most situations they should at least fall off harder than them
nerf their vet and make the schreck/flame grenade package side tech requiring research - that should balance them
This isn't so much a balance problem as its a gameplay.
And such a nerf would hurt OKW earlygame a lot and allow OKW to just get killed by allied light vehicle play.
Pls read suggestion and OP in future before you post and comment on that.
i would prefer more AT rifles in general because they're effective (but not OP) counters to light vehicles and it would delay schrecks some. it also adds variety. a dedicated AT squad would also be nice but it would be a lot of work.
I think we're talking from the same page here, except I see tactical options. Because they are more effective due to ROF and hardly missing, they do end up having more DPM against light vehicles but lack pennetration to deal with medium tanks or heavies.
So getting schrecks is really trading penetration for DPM which adds to strategical depth.
Moreover, with current axis weapons, there is no way to distinguish light and medium armour in the way that allies weapons like the Zook can. What do I mean by this? All Axis AT will penn light and medium armour practically all the time so in these cases, it makes armour redundant, the only difference between a light and medium vehicle is HP. This is heavily exaggerated with the AEC which does compare to a mini Cromwell. This kind of change would end up fixing this.
As for work, not so much. Its acceptable to copy the Soviet AT rifle and use that for Panzerjager squads.
the point isn't to make volks close combat squads, it's to make them suck at range so they don't deal with both infantry and tanks at range. kind of like how pgrens get 2 schrecks instead of 1 so that they get really good at AT but shit at AI. in the case of a schreck + mp40 (NOT mp44), volks would have effective AT while still having effective AI but ONLY at close ranges. again, it's not about giving OKW close combat options but instead about making volks less cost effective with schrecks.
If we have panzerjager squads, I feel Volks with schrecks has to go. However, like VCoH, they can be given mp40s to engage at close range. Its situational but if I have this option, I'd rather use Volks to spearhead than sturms for instance.
But sure if panzerjager squads don't appear than thats a good alternative.
lol OKW are heavily reliant on shreks without them they are screwed. Go play a 1v1 or 2v2 as OKW and dont use shreks the whole game and them come back to this topic.
Panzerjeager just sounds like panzer grenadiers with shreks. If volks and shreks were so hard to counter then okw would be dominating all modes since they are used EVERY MATCH hence the reliance but no they are not.
I'm not getting rid of schrecks, I'm moving them.
And I'm interested in having Panzerjagers with different AT options that can trade DPM for pennetration, depending on tech.
Volks and schreks are not impossible to counter but it tends to lead to the blobby play that most hate.
thought about this a little bit and i think that paking mp40s INTO the schreck upgrade might be a solution. this would make volks shit at anything other than melee range which would make them easier to counter with other units. it wouldn't make a huge difference for pub stomp heros but for people who can use HMGs it would be significant.
alternatively a dedicated AT squad could be a good solution or PzB 39 or PrG 39. would be an interesting solution. the PrG 39 in particular would be cool as it would function like a Piat (OKW has mines for snare and other decent AT options) while also being able to have some kind of frag barrage ability.
This could work, call it the close combat package?
Although I'd rather the AT rifle so it does have higher DPM vs light vehicles with the Panzerjager squad, but doesn't have any effect on proper armour, which would require Panzerschrecks ugraded.
German Steel, German Engineering
+100% Armor protection on all vehicles
+100% Armor penetration on all vehicles
-99% Build time on all vehicles
Not stronk enough, fuhrer wouldn't be pleased.
For Mother Russia!
-50% Received accuracy for conscripts
+15% Movement speed of all vehicles
-99% Conscript build time
-99% Soviet Fuel Cost
+250% Fuel income
-25% Cost of all vehicles
-99% Vehicle build time
Like Monkeys Throwing Feces!
-99% Conscript cost
-99% Cost of conscript abilities
-99% Cool down of conscript abilities
+200% Manpower income
Needed 1000 pop cap as well. Also needed base +500 Munitions income and this will be balanced
I Want Fire Superiority!
-99% Cost of weapon upgrades
-99% Build Time of the Major, Lieutenant, and Captain
-99% Cost of the Major, Lieutenant, and Captain
Weakest out of them all tbh if it werent for the brits one
BIG PAPA PUMP!
+500% Armor protection for all Churchill variants
-99% Build/Dispatch time for all Churchill variants
+15% Acceleration speed
+200% Armor penetration of sherman firefly
-50% Received accuracy for sherman firefly
+15% Movement/Acceleration speed of sherman firefly
The Queen's Royal Bobby
+50% Accuracy of all infantry
-50% Received accuracy for all infantry
-99% Cost of all weapon upgrades
Looking at all of these, I call anti Brit bias
None of these are Opie opie. Especially the Dragonfly one.
Suggestions like these have been floating about a lot, I've made some myself. That being said:
Schrecks on mainline infantry right now are a gameplay, not a balance problem. It makes for some lame mechanics, but its not actually an issue on the competitive plane in my opinion.
Right now there is no other viable squad to give Schrecks to. Schrecks on Sturms or Obers is frankly an absurd suggestion. Obers are already situational as is, come out of T4, and are absolutely needed to do the heavy lifting in the AI department for OKW in the lategame. Sturms are already needed for sweeping and repairs, changing them to an auxiliary AT role in addition to that would overtax them. I think the Op is correct when he says that a change like this would require an additional, dedicated AT squad to be created from scratch.
Just a few random remarks.
-Mp 40s are a downgrade and would be a totally unattractive choice. Have you guys ever tried using assgrens past the 5 minute mark?
-Kiting Schrecks with medium tanks is definetly possible. Heck, its doable with light tanks, within reason.
Could buff the MP40s so they're more useable at short-medium range
They are very situational weapons but the option is always there where they will outperform Kars. Usually, assgrens have trouble in the sense that they have to make ground before their MP40s have any effect which means they would tend to lose a few models and a lot of their theoretical DPM as a result. But with a creative use of Truesight, it definitely could have some utility.
Make the volk's combat package (schrecks) available after you purchase an upgrade from the med hq for 250 mp & 20 fuel (kind of like soviet AT package), then make the combat package (schrecks) itself cost 100 muni instead of 90 muni. It would make the OKW have to invest more into their schreck blobs of doom, instead of getting rid of it entirely.
Considering the light vehicle meta that the Allies tend to use, this would mean that it would be ages till you will get schreks and infantry will get run over by all manners of T70s and Light vehicles, I don't think that is an option.
Volk blobs of doom tends to be a problem in the endgame, not early or early-midgame.
Dont know why we can't be historical & aesthetic. While also balanced.
As long as light skinned vehicles are used by armies, AT-rifles can always serve some purpose.
Hell even the Soviets used AT rifles when fighting the Japs and those were quite devastating.
Ya 1945 we still have germans using AT rifles. Sorry but no.
I'm pretty sure when it comes to any army in general, esp late war Germany, it'll come down to using whatever's in your arsenal rather than what everyone would love to use
Soviets don't have "Hard AT infantry". And a lot worse options than OKW in the destroyer department. And OKW have the cheapest, earliest, AT gun in the game.
Well, yes, but OKW doesn't have any non-doc soft AT either. In any case, no AT ability or weapon in the game is locked behind vet.
Not to mention the sovies have an ability which lets them sprint and destroy tank engines at will provided they do a bit of damage.
1. Sure so now you have to upgrade them to make them useless to fight in range combats, so you just give free vet to all allied infantry that fight on range.
2. Okay volks get faust and the Raketens range doesn't let you kill the vehicle then.
3. Lel no.
Please elaborate its not helpful to have posts like this which doesn't have any reasoning behind it. And point 3 fixes 1 and 2, so I don't see the problem. If you don't have change 3, then there would be a problem with 1 and 2, but with change 3, there wouldn't be that kind of problem.
Upgrading with MP40s is situational and something that shouldn't be done on a map which is very open like say Red Ball Express but its better on maps like say Semois.
Giving them another AT unit is just gonna be a copy and paste from Ostheer. Just leave the Volks alone. The OBK design doesn't really even make much sense.
Shrecks either need to be nerfed, cost increased or Volks need better options. There's a reason why you don't see a blob of Rifle zooks.
Okay what we do agree on is the following.
1. OKW design from initial release is FUBAR. ATM, all traces of the old OKW design was lost when they "reworked" it. I personally hate how it was reworked.
2. Yes the OKW redesign makes so little sense so that it works more or less like an Ostheer with trucks (but better baseline infantry when it comes to OKW). What I'm trying to do is not fix OKW back into what it should have been designed as but try to work with it as it stands.
But as for the rest of the post.
1. Pzgrens are NOT strictly AT units. They have a option for very good close quarters AI or for all intents and purposes an AT squad. Pzjager squads as I propose them do not behave like this, they are strictly an AT squad which can be upgraded with Schrecks which behaves as a penn increase, but reduces DPM and accuracy.
2. I'm perfectly fine with the Shreck as it is in the game. What I'm not fine with is Volks being able to carry it.
3. 90 muni for a hard AT weapon is already pricey as it is. Don't think the right balance here would be cost increase.
4. Rifle zook blobs don't happen because unlike OKW Rifles once they hit vet one actually do have soft AT that no non-doc unit with OKW has.
If you get rid of shreks on volks the whole faction is gonna get fucked like ostheer is right now
Thats why I suggested a panzerjager squad that comes with double AT rifles that can be upgraded to double shreck in the Med truck.
1. Because with this change, it makes a difference between light and medium armour for allies unlike now.
2. It potentially gives a specialised squad more AT DPM
3. It can defensively hard counter light vehicles even better than the volks can right now.
4. Volk shreck blobs won't a thing
5. It provides OKW with a hard AT unit and a specialised one at that.
I get that Volk shreck helps them, but what could help as well is an equally priced unit that has better AT abilities than the Volk, but far weaker AI than the volk.