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Fixing Volks - MP40s for shrecks

28 Jan 2016, 22:33 PM
#1
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

So everyone's a bit tired of how Volks are just a generalist Pzshreck squad right?

One thing that could be done is to improve Volk AI performance while getting rid of their AT performance. So instead of a Pzshreck upgrade, you end up with a MP40 upgrade, very similar to CoH1. For AT, they can get a Pzfaust that can't be deployed until you get a converted truck. Volks with Kars should also have far weaker performance than Grens with Kars too, but it should be strong enough to ward off any attacking baseline inf - ie the Kars should be used as a long range agressive infantry deterrent.

However, OKW would still need some form of hard infantry AT. Maybe a solution to this is to put a Panzerjager 4-man squad which is armed with double shrecks in T2 (or Med truck tier), possibly costing around 250 - 290 MP and the other 2 members are armed with Kars. These shrecks can be replenished if dropped for a cost of muni. This could replace the map-hack HT in the med truck.

These proposed changes do a few things
1. Fix lel skill volk blobs.
2. Allow Volks to actually have some utility in the way that they do in VCoH
3. Forces the player to make a strategic decision - do I expect long range engagements like say on Langres
4. Adds to the theme of specialisation
5. Actually give Med Truck some AT abilities. Notice how in the past, all HTs come with having specialised AI and AT units that can deploy, but ever since the rework, Med Truck lacks this.
6. Get rid of gimmicky and unnecessary maphack HT.

Now you could say that with these changes that OKW would play more like Ostheer and you wouldn't be wrong, however considering what Relic decided to do with OKW and the way that they overhauled it, OKW has long lost the theme of a late war machine that lacks in fuel and muni and often has to make the choice between them. So now, all you can do is balance OKW so that you can make its units a bit more specialist while getting rid of excesses like volk pzshreck blobs.

EDIT: I'm all up for Pzjager squads to start off with AT rifles with higher DPM but lower penn that can be upgraded to pzschrecks. Because really when it comes to light vehicles, considering most of Axis AT abilities are high penn, it kind of in a way makes armour meaningless in the sense that it'll always penn everything except the heaviest of vehicles so armour doesn't really matter.

TLDR: Changes proposed:

1. Volks to get MP40 upgrade instead of Shreck
2. Volks to get faust
3. Panzerjager squad to replace Maphack truck, can come initially with AT rifles that can be upgraded to shrecks.
28 Jan 2016, 22:43 PM
#2
avatar of damiann

Posts: 12

no just make shreck unlock on vet 3 squads so we can keep they number at bay
28 Jan 2016, 22:55 PM
#3
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2016, 22:43 PMdamiann
no just make shreck unlock on vet 3 squads so we can keep they number at bay


This pretty much gives OKW no Infantry hard AT, which is not an option, no other weapon in the game is locked behind vet.
28 Jan 2016, 22:59 PM
#4
avatar of damiann

Posts: 12

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2016, 22:55 PMhubewa


This pretty much gives OKW no Infantry hard AT, which is not an option, no other weapon in the game is locked behind vet.


so what? geting vet isnt that hard and 1-2 shreks squads are just what you need to push tanks back.
28 Jan 2016, 23:01 PM
#5
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2016, 22:33 PMhubewa
So everyone's a bit tired of how Volks are just a generalist Pzshreck squad right?

However, OKW would still need some form of hard infantry AT. Maybe a solution to this is to put a Panzerjager 4-man squad which is armed with double shrecks in T2 (or Med truck tier), possibly costing around 250 - 290 MP and the other 2 members are armed with Kars. These shrecks can be replenished if dropped for a cost of muni. This could replace the map-hack HT in the med truck.


EDIT: I'm all up for Pzjager squads to start off with AT rifles with higher DPM but lower penn that can be upgraded to pzschrecks. Because really when it comes to light vehicles, considering most of Axis AT abilities are high penn, it kind of in a way makes armour meaningless in the sense that it'll always penn everything except the heaviest of vehicles so armour doesn't really matter.

+1 great suggestion. I have been suggesting this for a while now.

Give volks stgs/mp40 faust upgrade when 2 trucks are down is my suggestion. So either mech + medic unlocks it. Or medic + schwerer.
28 Jan 2016, 23:16 PM
#6
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923


+1 great suggestion. I have been suggesting this for a while now.

Give volks stgs/mp40 faust upgrade when 2 trucks are down is my suggestion. So either mech + medic unlocks it. Or medic + schwerer.


A few problems with this:

1. Can't be STG upgrade, otherwise that will pretty much outmatch sturmpios
2. Any AI only has utility at the earlygame. So 2 trucks would be too much, 1 truck is okay. Besides, MP40 is a very situational weapon where its good close range but really bad at long range, unlike STGs which are passable at any range but really good long range. Forcing players to make strategical decisions like this is perfectly fine in the earlygame IMO
3. OKW needs soft AT a lot sooner than 2 trucks.
28 Jan 2016, 23:28 PM
#7
avatar of kitekaze

Posts: 362

Why not let Obergrenadiers carry streck? 2 streck purchase with 120 ammo as usual.

As volk, for early defense, I suggest that they could upgrade MP40+Incendiary nade as OP say, or 2 Panzerpunsche+At grenade.
28 Jan 2016, 23:35 PM
#8
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

Why not let Obergrenadiers carry streck? 2 streck purchase with 120 ammo as usual.

As volk, for early defense, I suggest that they could upgrade MP40+Incendiary nade as OP say, or 2 Panzerpunsche+At grenade.


Obers with their 400 MP cost would be not only unattractive as shreck carriers but also prohibitive as well with the infantry heavy gameplay that OKW has.

I think Volks as they stand without shrecks are an early defence form, maybe with AT nade as well. With MP40, they can't defend well except if enemies try to get into their face.
28 Jan 2016, 23:50 PM
#9
avatar of Pancake Areolas

Posts: 230

Permanently Banned
Forcing obers to carry panzershrecks is actually an extremely large nerf to okw. T2 At squad is most balanced.
28 Jan 2016, 23:53 PM
#10
avatar of LemonJuice

Posts: 1144 | Subs: 7

If you get rid of shreks on volks the whole faction is gonna get fucked like ostheer is right now
28 Jan 2016, 23:56 PM
#11
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

Why not let Obergrenadiers carry streck? 2 streck purchase with 120 ammo as usual.

As volk, for early defense, I suggest that they could upgrade MP40+Incendiary nade as OP say, or 2 Panzerpunsche+At grenade.


That'd be a huge waste of Obers, nobody (who knows what they're doing) would ever use that.

It'd be better to just have a Panzerschreck Squad as it's own unit.
29 Jan 2016, 00:01 AM
#12
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

If you get rid of shreks on volks the whole faction is gonna get fucked like ostheer is right now


Thats why I suggested a panzerjager squad that comes with double AT rifles that can be upgraded to double shreck in the Med truck.

Why this?
1. Because with this change, it makes a difference between light and medium armour for allies unlike now.
2. It potentially gives a specialised squad more AT DPM
3. It can defensively hard counter light vehicles even better than the volks can right now.
4. Volk shreck blobs won't a thing
5. It provides OKW with a hard AT unit and a specialised one at that.

I get that Volk shreck helps them, but what could help as well is an equally priced unit that has better AT abilities than the Volk, but far weaker AI than the volk.
29 Jan 2016, 00:09 AM
#13
avatar of varunax

Posts: 203

Giving them another AT unit is just gonna be a copy and paste from Ostheer. Just leave the Volks alone. The OBK design doesn't really even make much sense.

Shrecks either need to be nerfed, cost increased or Volks need better options. There's a reason why you don't see a blob of Rifle zooks.
29 Jan 2016, 00:43 AM
#14
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2016, 00:09 AMvarunax
Giving them another AT unit is just gonna be a copy and paste from Ostheer. Just leave the Volks alone. The OBK design doesn't really even make much sense.

Shrecks either need to be nerfed, cost increased or Volks need better options. There's a reason why you don't see a blob of Rifle zooks.


Okay what we do agree on is the following.

1. OKW design from initial release is FUBAR. ATM, all traces of the old OKW design was lost when they "reworked" it. I personally hate how it was reworked.
2. Yes the OKW redesign makes so little sense so that it works more or less like an Ostheer with trucks (but better baseline infantry when it comes to OKW). What I'm trying to do is not fix OKW back into what it should have been designed as but try to work with it as it stands.

But as for the rest of the post.
1. Pzgrens are NOT strictly AT units. They have a option for very good close quarters AI or for all intents and purposes an AT squad. Pzjager squads as I propose them do not behave like this, they are strictly an AT squad which can be upgraded with Schrecks which behaves as a penn increase, but reduces DPM and accuracy.
2. I'm perfectly fine with the Shreck as it is in the game. What I'm not fine with is Volks being able to carry it.
3. 90 muni for a hard AT weapon is already pricey as it is. Don't think the right balance here would be cost increase.
4. Rifle zook blobs don't happen because unlike OKW Rifles once they hit vet one actually do have soft AT that no non-doc unit with OKW has.
29 Jan 2016, 00:59 AM
#15
avatar of poop

Posts: 174

If you get rid of shreks on volks the whole faction is gonna get fucked like ostheer is right now


They have T0 AT gun.

They would have fausts

They have mines

They have 2 tank destroyers non-doc (Panther, jagdpanzer)

They have a non-doc heavy

They have a doc heavy tank destroyer

---

OKW had a ridiculous amount of AT potential, I fail to see how removing them from shreks would "fuck" them at all.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2016, 22:55 PMhubewa


This pretty much gives OKW no Infantry hard AT, which is not an option, no other weapon in the game is locked behind vet.


Soviets don't have "Hard AT infantry". And a lot worse options than OKW in the destroyer department. And OKW have the cheapest, earliest, AT gun in the game.
29 Jan 2016, 01:13 AM
#16
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4485

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2016, 00:09 AMvarunax
Giving them another AT unit is just gonna be a copy and paste from Ostheer. Just leave the Volks alone. The OBK design doesn't really even make much sense.


How is it copy+paste from Ostheer if Ostheer doesn't have a unit like that?
29 Jan 2016, 01:13 AM
#17
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1890

Just give them all the guns Sturms have for an upgrade, move shrek to Sturms and give Sturms G43s by default.
29 Jan 2016, 01:17 AM
#18
avatar of d0ggY
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 752 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2016, 22:33 PMhubewa



1. Volks to get MP40 upgrade instead of Shreck
2. Volks to get faust
3. Panzerjager squad to replace Maphack truck, can come initially with AT rifles that can be upgraded to shrecks.


1. Sure so now you have to upgrade them to make them useless to fight in range combats, so you just give free vet to all allied infantry that fight on range.
2. Okay volks get faust and the Raketens range doesn't let you kill the vehicle then.
3. Lel no.
29 Jan 2016, 01:27 AM
#19
avatar of hubewa

Posts: 923

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2016, 00:59 AMpoop


Soviets don't have "Hard AT infantry". And a lot worse options than OKW in the destroyer department. And OKW have the cheapest, earliest, AT gun in the game.


Well, yes, but OKW doesn't have any non-doc soft AT either. In any case, no AT ability or weapon in the game is locked behind vet.

Not to mention the sovies have an ability which lets them sprint and destroy tank engines at will provided they do a bit of damage.

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2016, 01:17 AMd0ggY


1. Sure so now you have to upgrade them to make them useless to fight in range combats, so you just give free vet to all allied infantry that fight on range.
2. Okay volks get faust and the Raketens range doesn't let you kill the vehicle then.
3. Lel no.


Please elaborate its not helpful to have posts like this which doesn't have any reasoning behind it. And point 3 fixes 1 and 2, so I don't see the problem. If you don't have change 3, then there would be a problem with 1 and 2, but with change 3, there wouldn't be that kind of problem.

Upgrading with MP40s is situational and something that shouldn't be done on a map which is very open like say Red Ball Express but its better on maps like say Semois.
29 Jan 2016, 02:14 AM
#20
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2177 | Subs: 4

I recommend Panzerbusche at rifles.

They are already in the game so Relic doesn't have to do any extra work besides moving some numbers around to make them work like the other at rifles.

These would be a mostly defensive weapon for early game to survive the light vehicle pushes. Late game they can already rely on their Raketen, Puma, Jagdpanzer, and panther for strong AT presence.

Whatever they do I would not like to see a snare on Volks, it makes them too much like every other infantry squad.
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