no they dont... 7 man takes more fuel/more time than any other weapon upgrade for any mainline ingame bar none....
Was I drawing comparisons to other weapon upgrades? Also wrong, Ostruppen lmg. |
Had a few games with sov, 7 men arrive way to early and ostruppen is now not really that strong anymore i feel, Essentially at around 5-8 (Whenever t3 is build really) ostruppen fall into complete irrelvancy since the 7men conscripts will push them out of the map, combined with m42/zis and sandbags makes for a horrid opponent to go up against. And incredibly easy to play for sov. The matchup for wehr is insanely difficult now i think. I will test a few more games but the meta is so incredibly rigid. Ostruppen genuinely feel like the only option when playing vs sov rn. |
I don't think buffing them directly is a good idea. Mainline inf spam is already too prominent. Why not just remove sandbags from all mainlines. This would be a massive indirect buff for grens (particularly LMG grens) and it would make the early mid game a million times more interesting.
While that would be the ideal choice, I see a very small chance that the balance team would move in that direction. It's one of those things you'd think they'd have done already otherwise.
I rather choose more durable, maybe we modify the vet system a bit? Rather then having -20% damage at vet 3, how about we modify it like this?
Vet 1: Unlock healing kit (only 10muni) & -10% damage
Vet 2: Increase accuracy 40% (the same as before)
Vet 3: further -10% damage
Or do you mean they are not even durable enough before vet 1 like the new system I suggest?
Because I play mainly 2vs2, My Grenadier at the start of the game usually clump up as a group of 2 - 3 together but I understand that you 1vs1 players have to spear them out around the map so durable is need.
P/S: I know my suggestion is flaw, I'm happy to hear your critic, thanks (also sorry about my English, it is not my native language)
I could see something like that working, where you get the same benefits piecemeal and earlier. But any and all gren changes would have to be played out first before any real judgement can be thrown out on whether its a viable change or not.
|
Hi, I'm agree with your ideal but I got a question:
Let's say you are in the balance team, what would you do to balance The Grenadier? (Cheaper? non-doctrine 5 man upgrade, lower reinforce cost?)
I know that you a top 1vs1 player so I wanna hear your input because right now most Wehr coh2 replay 8 out of 10 are Ostruppen or Assault Grenadier or 5 man grenadier squad.
Thanks!
Me? hrm. Probably along the lines of either making them beefier, lowering their reinforce cost and increasing their close range damage at vet 2 probably, the main problem right now is that they don't really have much in durability or sustained combat, and despite being significantly cheaper than say rifles, end up being outnumbered or evenly match in terms of numbers but will end up still losing the majority of their engagements.
TLDR: Buff firepower or make them more durable. |
So i've played a few games, mainly wehr vs usf/sovw, haven't tried much else. My main thing i drew away from it was that the meta will remain exactly the same for wehr and even more stale now than before, with 5man grens being nerfed there isn't really any value to sacrificing your early game with shitty grens when you could simply just get ostruppen, and if you nerf ostruppen the faction becomes nigh unplayable now.
Like the incentive before with 5man grens was that you'd get a really overpowered squad but you would smash asunder your early game, now that that's gone there's no point in going 5man because you're destroying your early game for a mid-level squad at best. And honestly why would anyone even wanna bother? Just go ostruppen.
I feel like these changes are trying to do magic here more than anything, you can't decide to make the meta less stale by ignoring the glaring issues a faction has. grens aren't good mainline and haven't been. And this refusal to buff them to make them usable will always force people into alternatives that avoid them, Assgren/ostruppen. If you want the 1v1 meta to stop being stale, then you simply have to buff them. There isn't any other solution that really exists for it.
|
Lol @ people who think locking ram behind vet 1 makes it shitty, ill always trade a t34 for elephant or tiger with the uber strafe. Really thats what should have been nerfed though while leaving rams as it was IMO |
I remember this change being implemented in one of the previews and being thrown out because t4 ostwind/hetzer rushes were OP |
Judging by Sander93’s thread, it seems highly likely that my old proposal to lower Ostheer medkit costs from 15 to 10 will make it to the preview. Other than that, I’m not sure what kind of buff LMG Grenadiers could be given. I did have an idea to give them a unique “hit the dirt” ability that immobilizes them (can cancel it after 10secs or retreat immediately) which would give them 5-10 extra LMG42 range. This both fits their role and plays to their strengths and defensive nature without being overbearing.
Not sure what else could be done. What kind of changes do you have in mind?
Probably along the side of increasing the midrange dps or close range dps with rifles, Just something so they can actually fight without upgrade, even with lmg its still not that strong tbh. Like the moment they get in green cover you actually cant push them, the opposite cannot be said for rifles/sections. |
With all due respect, it’s theoretical for you, not me. In more than 15 games with these changes (Removed RA bonus from 5men, Osttruppen timing nerfs, T1 skip nerfs) on miragefla’s mod with him and other lv17-19 players in 1s and 2s we extensively tested the Ostheer changes and found the faction to be in an excellent spot after them.
These conclusions are not absolutely perfect, but are certainly much better than theoretical predictions.
Okay fair enough on the nontheoretical bits, -but- The thing is we can test vanilla grenadiers against various factions and the result will always be the same unless grens get some sort of buff. The engagements will remain and continue to be horrid and painful. Which forces into the same 4 doctrines. |
They’ll have to use positioning to keep distance and combined arms to win. 5man Grens and Osttruppen will also be options, toned down from the current OP state into a balanced state so that it’s fair.
Ostheer will be in an excellent spot after 5man Grens and Osttruppen merfs, as well as hopefully a Pgren move back to T2 and the nerf to T1 skip builds.
Thats hogwash lol and is extremely theoretical. What will happen in practice is this: anytime you go up against any infantry that has any decent vet and or upgrade (though many cases already exist where the enemy having neither will still result in you losing." Barring max range will force you to concede ground ans retreat. Good luck supressing 4 hell sometimes 5 rifle squads (LT+Cpt). Good luck pushing when you cant make sandbags and they can. Hell it gets even better. Lategame you get zoned out because your vehicles dont have the wipe potenial of your opponents.
Grens are fucking worthless and have no value. Any decent player knows this which is why everyone and their mother go for something that isnt vanilla grens.
Oh well. Okw/assgren meta here we fucking go again. |