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russian armor

Wehr weak penetration

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18 Oct 2019, 13:19 PM
#221
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

We're diverging from the topic with endless arguments about schematics and trying to define what exactly the Panther is - which has been done to death in all previous threads about similar topics. Why not get back to the topic at hand instead of nitpicking on things completely out of context?


but how would these topics last 11 pages without wild tangents

On the actual subject matter, Ostheer's vehicles do their jobs.

Many of Ostheer and OKW's vehicles favour damage output over penetration, but that's usually to their advantage given the generally lower armour values of the Allied roster.

For heavy tanks both factions have the non-doctrinal Panther, which has solid penetration and the speed & durability to flank and use near-penetration values.

The SU-85 and Firefly have better penetration, but they have to fight at long range and generally face more heavily armoured targets than the Panther does.

The Jackson is a monster but has to be because USF has no other nondoctrinal option.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:13 PMgbem
semantics aside the panther is perfectly capable of killing infantry quite efficiently... (since its 3 MGs are equivalent to the T-34s MG)... to treat it like the dedicated TDs and lumping it with them while ignoring its anti infantry capability is unrealistic at best...


That's not the point. If you strapped six .50 cals to a Jackson, it'd still be the USF tank destroyer.

How similar it is to other TDs doesn't change the fact that Ostheer uses it as a tank destroyer.
18 Oct 2019, 13:26 PM
#222
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:19 PMLago


That's not the point. If you strapped six .50 cals to a Jackson, it'd still be the USF tank destroyer.

How similar it is to other TDs doesn't change the fact that Ostheer uses it as a tank destroyer.


tbh thats more semantics than anything else... but i get your point...

however im not here to argue about semantics but rather capability... and the panther most definitely has the capability to fight infantry at least to the level of the average medium tank...
18 Oct 2019, 13:32 PM
#223
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Nope medium have effective main gun ai
18 Oct 2019, 13:35 PM
#224
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Nope medium have effective main gun ai


though i may not remember the test results but i do remember its AI being outclassed only by the T-34-76/85 M4A3 and M4C... the rest were either comparable to or worse even with the maingun on...
18 Oct 2019, 13:42 PM
#225
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:35 PMgbem
though i may not remember the test results but i do remember its AI being outclassed only by the T-34-76/85 M4A3 and M4C... the rest were either comparable to or worse even with the maingun on...


If we take Range 10 as a benchmark, the Panther has a total of about 25 DPS on its MGs.

The Puma and the StuG both have about 11 DPS on their MGs, and all three vehicles have shitty anti-infantry performance on their main guns.

When you consider the Panther's just over twice the price of a StuG, they've got similar anti-infantry firepower for the same cost.
18 Oct 2019, 13:51 PM
#226
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:42 PMLago


If we take Range 10 as a benchmark, the Panther has a total of about 25 DPS on its MGs.

The Puma and the StuG both have about 11 DPS on their MGs, and all three vehicles have shitty anti-infantry performance on their main guns.

When you consider the Panther's just over twice the price of a StuG, they've got similar anti-infantry firepower for the same cost.


well its cost is due to the fact that it is an excellent tank hunter on top of its anti infantry capability... but it isnt a dedicated tank hunter as its the only tank hunter with significant anti infantry power... hence why i use the term "premium medium"... but in no way is it a dedicated tank hunter...

as i said this is really just semantics... i could call it a "space unicorn" and it wont change a single stat or characteristic of the unit at all...
18 Oct 2019, 13:56 PM
#227
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:51 PMgbem
well its cost is due to the fact that it is an excellent tank hunter on top of its anti infantry capability... but it isnt a dedicated tank hunter as its the only tank hunter with significant anti infantry power... hence why i use the term "premium medium"... but in no way is it a dedicated tank hunter...

as i said this is really just semantics... i could call it a "space unicorn" and it wont change a single stat or characteristic of the unit at all...


Premium mediums are a specific class of unit though: they're more expensive medium generalists with better stats.

The Panther isn't a generalist. It's a weird unit that sits between a medium tank and a dedicated tank destroyer. It can force infantry off points, but you'd never build one as a bleed tool like you would a Panzer IV.

The only real parallel to it is the Stuart.
18 Oct 2019, 13:57 PM
#228
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 09:41 AMVipper
Imo one start by reducing the effectiveness all long range TDs.

That might include lower accuracy at max range and lower reload at max range.


This would be my route as well

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 09:44 AMKatitof


And how would allies counter panther then?


With its new much lowered armour value reducing pen wouldn't be catastrophic
Also I'd add deflection damage to all TDs so that a hard counter doesn't have to mean invalidator

The PTRS has shown that even deflection damage can be formidable and high volume can defeat armour. The issue with armour and TDs right now (or less NOW than before I supposed) is its all or nothing. You could use your hard counter exactly as intended with everything but luck in your favor and deal no damage possibly all game. It's possible to have pop cap full of TDs shooting and deal no damage to some targets. It's also possible for the highest armour units in the game to never deflect a shot from units that have no right doing damage. Unbridled RNG isn't great for balance. It needs to be reliable and reliable for BOTH parties. Armour should mean something just as much as hard counters do.
18 Oct 2019, 13:59 PM
#229
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 13:56 PMLago


Premium mediums are a specific class of unit though: they're more expensive medium generalists with better stats.

The Panther isn't a generalist. It's a weird unit that sits between a medium tank and a dedicated tank destroyer. It can force infantry off points, but you'd never build one as a bleed tool like you would a Panzer IV.

The only real parallel to it is the Stuart.


hmm it seems like theres a new designation in order... its definitely not a dedicated tank destroyer... but its also not a premium medium...

ill just call it a heavy premium medium...
18 Oct 2019, 14:02 PM
#230
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

Premium medium implies great ai

So no , It's tank hunter , literally an upscaled aec
18 Oct 2019, 14:02 PM
#231
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Given how often tank battles come down to 'do I roll a lucky last shot before the enemy tank retreats behind its ATGs' I'd be in favour of deflection damage. Probably only 25%, but enough to mitigate those absurd strings of bounces on a 160 HP tank you sometimes get.

It'd also keep medium armour relevant.

I doubt Relic would support such a big change at this point though.
18 Oct 2019, 14:04 PM
#232
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Premium medium implies great ai

So no , It's tank hunter , literally an upscaled aec


its not a dedicated tank hunter... it definitely does quite alot more infantry damage than an AEC aswell... but ehh as i said this is semantics...
18 Oct 2019, 14:04 PM
#233
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Premium medium implies great ai

So no , It's tank hunter , literally an upscaled aec
. Not necessarily
Premium medium means better than average mediums. I'd put the E8 as a premium medium (even if it's doctrine makes it rarer than fuck) but it's AI isn't spectacular. Same with panther and comet.
18 Oct 2019, 14:06 PM
#234
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

I would love for COH 2 real side armour, deflection damage for TD (unsure about at guns) and point blank mechanic for normal tanks

It would make sense as normal tank used round that increased pen the closer u are but TD generally used HEAT shells that had same penetration long and close but did more minor damage (deflection) as they didn't have explosive
18 Oct 2019, 14:06 PM
#235
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Premium medium implies great ai

And then, there is comet and M4C sherman.
18 Oct 2019, 14:07 PM
#236
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

. Not necessarily
Premium medium means better than average mediums. I'd put the E8 as a premium medium (even if it's doctrine makes it rarer than fuck) but it's AI isn't spectacular. Same with panther and comet.
comet has great ai now and easy 8 has great ai with almost no scatter on the move

Same for the 76 mm as it has 2 shells a d 1,5 moving scatter
18 Oct 2019, 14:08 PM
#237
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

comet has great ai now and easy 8 has great ai with almost no scatter on the move


if i remember correctly the E8 scored the same with th panther in terms of AI...
18 Oct 2019, 14:09 PM
#238
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 14:08 PMgbem


if i remember correctly the E8 scored the same with th panther in terms of AI...
it has sigtgly lower aoe than p4 but better scatter and on the move is around 1,3 while most medium have 2,0
18 Oct 2019, 14:17 PM
#239
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Oct 2019, 14:06 PMKatitof

And then, there is comet and M4C sherman.

If you are claiming that Comet and M4C Sherman have bad AI pls provide proof.
18 Oct 2019, 14:18 PM
#240
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

it has sigtgly lower aoe than p4 but better scatter and on the move is around 1,3 while most medium have 2,0

?

Normally units have 0.5 scatter and accuracy multiplier on the move, most USF vehicles have 0.75.

So its 1.5 vs 2 if anything.
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