So this kind of illustrates the issue with balancing things.
70% want a unit to be changed, 30% don't.
So you go with the best option available, follow the majority, and change the unit (and piss off 30% of people).
In this 70% that want this unit to be changed, you have a raw 20% that want change A, 15% that want change B, that 15% want change C, 10% want change D, and 10% that want an assortment of changes E-H. So you go with the best option available, follow the majority, and go with change A (and piss off another 50% of people).
Taking the most popular course of action, you have now pissed off 80% of the playerbase, with the alternatives pissing off an even larger percentage.
TL;DR: A lot of people are always going to end up upset, so you just do the best that you can
RAKETENWERFER, Stay or Change. What say you?
14 Aug 2019, 23:19 PM
#21
Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2
14 Aug 2019, 23:55 PM
#22
Posts: 783
So this kind of illustrates the issue with balancing things.
70% want a unit to be changed, 30% don't.
So you go with the best option available, follow the majority, and change the unit (and piss off 30% of people).
In this 70% that want this unit to be changed, you have a raw 20% that want change A, 15% that want change B, that 15% want change C, 10% want change D, and 10% that want an assortment of changes E-H. So you go with the best option available, follow the majority, and go with change A (and piss off another 50% of people).
Taking the most popular course of action, you have now pissed off 80% of the playerbase, with the alternatives pissing off an even larger percentage.
TL;DR: A lot of people are always going to end up upset, so you just do the best that you can
That is unfortunately a natural feature that all humans have to experience.
Having to go with the flow with many things, whether we would like it or not.
It is pretty much an "opportunity cost" mechanic.
Personally the Rak needs changes to remove Camo and improve its AT department better.
They got some patch changes right but the range needs to be improved more I believe to make it more suitable.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be for
ukf
usf
okw
soviets
ostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. 
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
15 Aug 2019, 00:15 AM
#23
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.
Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.
The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.
The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
Tobis "Complete Throw"
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
15 Aug 2019, 00:18 AM
#24
Posts: 783
Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.
Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.
The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
You make a point about some things like keeping the retreat. It is what makes it somewhat unique, though the current function is extremely frustrating.
I still find its current range a huge pain in the ass. It definitely needs some improvement like at least min +10 range or max +15 range.
+5 add is simply too meager.
All in all, it does needs some improvements in range and survivability mostly. Definitely nerf camo. That is my conclusion.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be forukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced.
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
15 Aug 2019, 00:36 AM
#25
Posts: 2981 | Subs: 3
Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.
Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.
The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
+1
They could slightly increase the RA modifier on retreat from 0.5 to 0.6 or something to make it not too hard to kill with the 5 men.
The current planned changes seem sensible but they are also kinda boring. Removing the retreat would turn the raketen into a camo ZiS gun 0.5
15 Aug 2019, 02:59 AM
#26
Posts: 5279
Please don't take away the only things making the raketen interesting.
Leave the range at 50 and give retreat back. Adding a fifth model is enough to make it more survivable, and cloak requiring standing still fixes the cheese.
The raketen was always a powerful unit, just wiped too easily and stolen. Don't increase the range, don't remove retreat. The other changes are good enough to fix the unit while keeping it unique.
5 men and retreat might be even cheesier actually because it would still fee super frustrating not being able to pin the damn thing down when it's used poorly or unsupported
#stalinwept
15 Aug 2019, 09:47 AM
#27
Posts: 1979
The rakaten needs to be reworked... not buffed... the concept of a squishy stealthy 60 range 5 man AT gun is just as bad as the current one albeit less frustrating to use however more frustrating to fight...
15 Aug 2019, 12:53 PM
#28
1 Posts: 2307 | Subs: 4
5 men and retreat might be even cheesier actually because it would still fee super frustrating not being able to pin the damn thing down when it's used poorly or unsupported
You can compare it to the 6 man soviet raketen.
Removing the moving in stealth cuts out 90% of the cheese.
Tobis "Complete Throw"
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
Someone asked what my avatar was from... I really don't know.
Defeated Paula and knocked him out of 2v2 Anniversary Cup
15 Aug 2019, 13:07 PM
#29
Posts: 3260
Removing stealth moving is a great idea, but a toggle implementation is going to make the unit even jankier.
Please consider making it automatically cloak when stationary instead. It's not as effective at hiding the unit as a toggle, but it's orders of magnitude nicer to use.
Please consider making it automatically cloak when stationary instead. It's not as effective at hiding the unit as a toggle, but it's orders of magnitude nicer to use.
15 Aug 2019, 13:11 PM
#30
Posts: 2243
it will be a hard nerf to them in the actuall patch.
no retreat and only a 5. model and + 5 range doesnt worth to take back retreat and moving camo.
Solutions:
1. make it like other AT guns: 60 range// 4 models + green cover bonus
OR give it 5 or 6 models
2. take away moving camo and give it 55 range + 1 model
all other will be a hard nerf
no retreat and only a 5. model and + 5 range doesnt worth to take back retreat and moving camo.
Solutions:
1. make it like other AT guns: 60 range// 4 models + green cover bonus
OR give it 5 or 6 models
2. take away moving camo and give it 55 range + 1 model
all other will be a hard nerf
15 Aug 2019, 13:15 PM
#31
Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8
it will be a hard nerf to them in the actuall patch.
no retreat and only a 5. model and + 5 range doesnt worth to take back retreat and moving camo.
Solutions:
1. make it like other AT guns: 60 range// 4 models + green cover bonus
OR give it 5 or 6 models
2. take away moving camo and give it 55 range + 1 model
all other will be a hard nerf
Its getting well deserved nerf, because it was OP for far too long.
Change my mind.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
15 Aug 2019, 13:23 PM
#32
Posts: 2243
Its getting well deserved nerf, because it was OP for far too long.
Change my mind.
apart from some sneaky operation with good skill and luck...it is a moving behind enemy lines AT...yes
but op?
it was in all other task the worst AT gun ingame. it dies mostly to the first 1-2 shells from any medium or heavy and has range from mg. wow. super op.
Since u will never play this patch ..why not shut the mouth ....or better: play the game and show us the OPness of rakten.
15 Aug 2019, 14:02 PM
#33
Posts: 5279
You can compare it to the 6 man soviet raketen.
Removing the moving in stealth cuts out 90% of the cheese.
Fair enough. Granted I hate when a Soviet manages to steal a Rak.... Ant kill the damn thing lol. But yea, lack of moving camo is a massive start.
#stalinwept
15 Aug 2019, 15:06 PM
#34
Posts: 2358
Its getting well deserved nerf, because it was OP for far too long.
Change my mind.
Misusing the word OP instead of cheesy is your own damn fault. It was annoying for both players, the one who used it and the one who faced it, that is not being OP in any way. Lastly the only thing that could be, by some very low standards is the ambush, surprise, in masse effect of 3 raketen appearing out of nowhere to hunt a stationary, on the frontlines vehicle. It's like rushing in with 2 Panthers as soon as the 2nd one arrives to use the surprise element as advantage, if you are not scouting your enemy is the same as a toggleable cloak.
To sum it up. Cloak was the cheese and got removed. Fair change.
The OP you call was the surprise element and that is not exclusive in any way only to raketens, they were not OP by their own stats.
You can thank me later
15 Aug 2019, 16:03 PM
#35
Posts: 783
it will be a hard nerf to them in the actuall patch.
no retreat and only a 5. model and + 5 range doesnt worth to take back retreat and moving camo.
Solutions:
1. make it like other AT guns: 60 range// 4 models + green cover bonus
OR give it 5 or 6 models
2. take away moving camo and give it 55 range + 1 model
all other will be a hard nerf
I would definitely go for the first option with improving its range.
The +5 range is definitely meager.
Needs more range now that Camo is extremely nerfed.
They should give instead minimum 10 or more.
Its getting well deserved nerf, because it was OP for far too long.
Change my mind.
It was never OP. It was crap and frustrating.
Annoying AT support weapon when using as Axis because it is ridiculous.
Annoying sneak feature assassination for Allies to experiences.
It was simply poorly designed.
It is not even a proper support AT weapon. It is definitely terrible but it was really frustrating to play with and against.
Misusing the word OP instead of cheesy is your own damn fault. It was annoying for both players, the one who used it and the one who faced it, that is not being OP in any way. Lastly the only thing that could be, by some very low standards is the ambush, surprise, in masse effect of 3 raketen appearing out of nowhere to hunt a stationary, on the frontlines vehicle. It's like rushing in with 2 Panthers as soon as the 2nd one arrives to use the surprise element as advantage, if you are not scouting your enemy is the same as a toggleable cloak.
To sum it up. Cloak was the cheese and got removed. Fair change.
The OP you call was the surprise element and that is not exclusive in any way only to raketens, they were not OP by their own stats.
You can thank me later
Yeah, that is true. Point stated.
Definitely Chessy.
OP is just the wrong term to describe the Raketenwerfers characteristics.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be forukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced.
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
16 Aug 2019, 12:14 PM
#36
Posts: 783
Just looked at the stats again and found what was the problem as to why it missed and reacts so slowly.
The term for "Reaction times" depends on these 3 underlying factors:
It's the "Delay", "Range" and "Reload".
It is so inferior to the other AT guns. No wonder it can be really unreliable at times.
https://coh2db.com/stats/#
Compare it and see for yourself as well as the other AT guns. On top of it is also reload that makes it terrible.
2 Major issues with Rak, is the actual problem.
It is the Delay and Reload. Both a combo of being inferior to others in contrast.
Since it takes a longer time before it even shoots (Rak having to take slightly more time than others) and reload that is long contributes for it too make it difficult to place shots easier. That is why it is also diffcult to place follow ups like 2nd shots. Limited range contributes also.
Limited range means limits its time.
Delay, Reload (both take too long) makes it more difficult with the fact of its limited Range. Devs need to look and change that stats a little.
The term for "Reaction times" depends on these 3 underlying factors:
It's the "Delay", "Range" and "Reload".
It is so inferior to the other AT guns. No wonder it can be really unreliable at times.
https://coh2db.com/stats/#
Compare it and see for yourself as well as the other AT guns. On top of it is also reload that makes it terrible.
2 Major issues with Rak, is the actual problem.
It is the Delay and Reload. Both a combo of being inferior to others in contrast.
Since it takes a longer time before it even shoots (Rak having to take slightly more time than others) and reload that is long contributes for it too make it difficult to place shots easier. That is why it is also diffcult to place follow ups like 2nd shots. Limited range contributes also.
Limited range means limits its time.
Delay, Reload (both take too long) makes it more difficult with the fact of its limited Range. Devs need to look and change that stats a little.
I enjoy Coh2. I want this game to be balanced as it can possibly be forukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced.
This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
ukfusfokwsovietsostheer. Do not judge me, for my opinion is balanced. This is my playercard number if you are curious: https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198127033144
16 Aug 2019, 13:39 PM
#37
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Raketenwerfer 43
The unit needs an (as many other units) an veterancy overhaul.
Most bonuses have to with camo and are completely useless when in garrison. In addition first strike bonuses come too late (especially compared to Soviet "camo" ATG with vet 0 bonuses).
Finally there is little reason for different camo mechanism across factions.
Other notes:
Unit reaction times are slow
Projectile seems to less chance of collision hits
Suggestion one could try making the unit work like other rockets and have less penetration but add deflection damage. One could even lower damage but increase accuracy making the more consistent. It could then be locked behind T1 same as the HMG with the faust available from first truck build or from start.
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