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Echelon Grenades

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18 Jun 2019, 16:37 PM
#41
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jun 2019, 14:26 PMLago

...Grenade REs aren't that good power-wise but they're really annoying. They work by overheating the opponent's micro, and that just isn't fun to deal with.

While I'd rather see them swapped out entirely in favour of the flamer, perhaps the autofiring grenades could be replaced with a manually targeted barrage ability? That'd be much less irritating than the autofiring grenades...


You literally are asking to nerf a unit thats been around for four (4) days simply because it's annoying to micro around. You're playing an RTS I mean, this can't actually be real feedback right? I mean, lets just remove the GrW mortar and all in-direct while we're at it.

You're the same guy that created the Jackson thread with 200+ comments. That's two threads created within a week asking to gut units for a faction you don't even play, simply because it's annoying for you(your quote btw). That's not feedback in good faith.


18 Jun 2019, 17:03 PM
#42
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

You literally are asking to nerf a unit thats been around for four (4) days simply because it's annoying to micro around. You're playing an RTS I mean, this can't actually be real feedback right? I mean, lets just remove the GrW mortar and all in-direct while we're at it.


Yeah microing is annoying


The problem isn't that you need to 'micro around it', the problem is the person on the receiving end needs to micro a ton to counter a unit requiring nearly zero. This means that the USF player can focus on micro'ing rifles/tanks, while forcing the opponent to do more for essentially 'free'.

Micro/Effort should be proportional; if it takes a ton of micro to pull off, it should require a ton to counter. Similarly, if it requires almost no effort, it shouldn't be very hard to avoid. This is why off-map has flares and a long delay; it's a 1-click low-effort ability, so it requires basically one click (a move command) to avoid it.

18 Jun 2019, 17:07 PM
#43
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359





The problem isn't that you need to 'micro around it', the problem is the person on the receiving end needs to micro a ton to counter a unit requiring nearly zero. This means that the USF player can focus on micro'ing rifles/tanks, while forcing the opponent to do more for essentially 'free'.

Micro/Effort should be proportional; if it takes a ton of micro to pull off, it should require a ton to counter. Similarly, if it requires almost no effort, it shouldn't be very effective. This is why off-map has flares and a long delay; it's a 1-click low-effort ability, so it's very easy to avoid.



That line of logic doesn't apply to any other indirect or static emplacement. I'll reiterate: If you're asking for the removal of a tool simply because its annoying for you to micro, it doesn't need to be removed and that persons feedback should be discarded. It costs 60 munis, fires stupidly slow. If you cant stop 6 RE squads, 15 minutes into the game, it's a L2P issue and not a unit one.
18 Jun 2019, 17:16 PM
#44
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

That line of logic doesn't apply to any other indirect or static emplacement. I'll reiterate: If you're asking for the removal of a tool simply because its annoying for you to micro, it doesn't need to be removed and that persons feedback should be discarded. It costs 60 munis, fires stupidly slow. If you cant stop 6 RE squads, 15 minutes into the game, it's a L2P issue and not a unit one.


There's a pretty big argument to tone down auto-fire, too, for the same reasons. The skill input needs to reflect the return; this is pretty much how all RTS games are balanced. A while back they were actually toned down a fair bit (OST mortar range, general ROF, etc.), but for some reason the pack-howie and scott were missed by these nerfs.

And yes, the 6RE spam is an edge-case where the player probably needs to improve; but one or two RE-RifleNades supporting a proper rifle push is far too effective for the amount of skill required.

And I'm not asking for it's removal - at all. It's actually a pretty interesting upgrade. I'm asking for it to require more micro for its current effectiveness. Either requiring attack ground to be decent (like the brummbar) or converting it to a barrage ability with a short cool down (15s?)
18 Jun 2019, 17:21 PM
#45
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

Rifle grenades are not induvidually so bad but when massed they are borderline broken. I was playing a match last day, and my opponent had gone for 6-7 rear echelon, all equipped with rifle grenades. I tried mgs to counter them, but the wave of grenade they fired just absolutely wiped every mg team i attempted to use. of course lategame blob counters work, but early on they are really annoying.


I'm sure you're not wrong, but that's 360-420 munitions worth of upgrades. The rifle nades are 60 each...

18 Jun 2019, 17:21 PM
#46
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359



There's a pretty big argument to tone down auto-fire, too, for the same reasons. The skill input needs to reflect the return; this is pretty much how all RTS games are balanced.

And yes, the 6RE spam is an edge-case where the player probably needs to improve; but one or two RE-RifleNades supporting a proper rifle push is far too effective for the amount of skill required.


Sorry, but being upset about the micro cost of an RE unit with a grenade after 4 days of seeing them is laughable compared to other axis examples like IRHT combo'd with 1 click rocket arty. Move out of the garrison or kill the RE. It's not hard to do either. Hopefully balance team is much smarter than to remove a new upgrade a week after release because it taxes an axis players micro in an annoying fashion.

Secondly, removing auto-fire from in-direct units is so stupid. They're indirect fire units meant to smash anything that can get spotted for them in range. We've been told to move our units for the last 6 years the games been out to counter IDF, but now I guess the community doesn't want to micro anything?
18 Jun 2019, 17:23 PM
#47
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

You literally are asking to nerf a unit thats been around for four (4) days simply because it's annoying to micro around. You're playing an RTS I mean, this can't actually be real feedback right? I mean, lets just remove the GrW mortar and all in-direct while we're at it.

You're the same guy that created the Jackson thread with 200+ comments. That's two threads created within a week asking to gut units for a faction you don't even play, simply because it's annoying for you(your quote btw). That's not feedback in good faith.


I'm not asking to nerf it.

I'm suggesting replace it with a more powerful manually targeted ability (like an actual grenade) or with the Rear Echelon Flamethrowers from Rifle Company.


asking to gut units for a faction you don't even play


https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198031945233
18 Jun 2019, 17:25 PM
#48
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Jun 2019, 17:23 PMLago


I'm not asking to nerf it.

I'm suggesting replace it with a more powerful manually targeted ability (like an actual grenade) or with the Rear Echelon Flamethrowers from Rifle Company.




You see that little conscript icon in the corner? That's a playercard link.

Take a look.


You're right, you're not asking for it to be nerfed, you're asking for it to be REMOVED and replaced with a weapon you don't have to do much to move around. You're asking for the removal of something a lot of people have been really excited for because you have to actually micro. Don't blow smoke up my ass with "a more powerful ability", this is all about your inconvenience, not health of the game.


18 Jun 2019, 17:27 PM
#49
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 959

Sorry, but being upset about the micro cost of an RE unit with a grenade after 4 days of seeing them is laughable compared to other axis examples like IRHT combo'd with 1 click rocket arty. Move out of the garrison or kill the RE. It's not hard to do either. Hopefully balance team is much smarter than to remove a new upgrade a week after release because it taxes an axis players micro in an annoying fashion.


In general, people want MORE micro, not less.

IRHT is low skill; it should be removed or 'fixed' somehow; but this isn't the thread for that. It's been brought up a few times. Rocket arty is fairly easy to counter. You can hear it coming, and there's a fair bit of delay before it hits. It's also manually targeted and has a long cool down. Yes, the OKW rocket arty does hit a bit hard with direct hits, but that's somewhat of a trade off for having almost no area of effect compared to Sov/USF/OKW/Brit rocket arty.

And, again, a 1v1 garisson fight isn't the issue. I've stated this a few times; it's concentrated rifle pushes supported by rifle-grenades against OST that's the issue. Their core units require you to be stationary to fire (LMG grens, MG42), and they need to do so in order to counter the rifles; but they can't because of a zero-input attack from a supporting unit.


Secondly, removing auto-fire from in-direct units is so stupid. They're indirect fire units meant to smash anything that can get spotted for them in range. We've been told to move our units for the last 6 years the games been out to counter IDF, but now I guess the community doesn't want to micro anything?


No, we want to micro more; that's why IDF should require more micro for more effect.
18 Jun 2019, 17:29 PM
#50
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

You're right, you're not asking for it to be nerfed, you're asking for it to be REMOVED and replaced with a weapon you don't have to do much to move around. You're asking for the removal of something a lot of people have been really excited for because you have to actually micro. Don't blow smoke up my ass with "a more powerful ability", this is all about your inconvenience, not health of the game.


The current design is irritating without being effective. In my book, that's a bad design.

Therefore, I've suggested changes to it.


I'm also still waiting on an apology for your false accusations, which are a little rich from someone who chooses to hide their own playercard.
18 Jun 2019, 17:31 PM
#51
avatar of pvtgooner

Posts: 359



You're missing the point. In general, people want MORE micro, not less.

IRHT is low skill; it should be removed or 'fixed' somehow; but this isn't the thread for that. It's been brought up a few times. Rocket arty is fairly easy to counter. You can hear it coming, and there's a fair bit of delay before it hits. It's also manually targeted and has a long cool down. Yes, the OKW rocket arty does hit a bit hard with direct hits, but that's somewhat of a trade off for having almost no area of effect compared to Sov/USF/OKW/Brit rocket arty.

And, again, a 1v1 garisson fight isn't the issue. I've stated this a few times. It's concentrated rifle pushes supported by rifle-grenades against OST that's the issue. Their core units require you to be stationary to fire (LMG grens, MG42), and they need to do so in order to counter the rifles; but they can't because of a zero-input attack from a supporting unit.




No, we want to micro more; that's why IDF should require more micro for more effect.



MG, GrW, Pgrens, Ostwind. LMG grens are not the only units that exist in the OST roster.
18 Jun 2019, 18:18 PM
#56
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Yeah can we just chill please.
18 Jun 2019, 18:37 PM
#57
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

It's way too early to advocate removing things, give it at least a few weeks for people to use it. The few games I've intentionally tried to use the RE grenades I can never afford enough muni to get more than 2, and 2 is hardly game changing. At most it means I have a counter to a HMG in a building that isn't a mortar.

Though again, removing it means the USF commander was just a wasted opportunity. I'm also confused by people saying it has pin-point accuracy -- it definitely doesn't, especially with any form of suppression. Unless the person is ground-targeting with it, in which case they are microing as much or more than the person "dodging" it.
18 Jun 2019, 18:42 PM
#58
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

The damage and range need to be heavily reduced it is the USF total cheese meta backed up by pak howitzer and scott atm and I for one would like to see something done about it sooner rather than later.
18 Jun 2019, 18:45 PM
#59
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053



You're right, you're not asking for it to be nerfed, you're asking for it to be REMOVED and replaced with a weapon you don't have to do much to move around. You're asking for the removal of something a lot of people have been really excited for because you have to actually micro. Don't blow smoke up my ass with "a more powerful ability", this is all about your inconvenience, not health of the game.



I'd like to see a targeted, free ability to launch grenades with the upgrade. Heck, at that point you could even buff it back up to at least fighting position grenade level since it'd actually take user input. All around a much better solution than current autofire mechanic, since it really just doesn't take a lot of skill or micro to use at all but also isn't super powerful or anything.
18 Jun 2019, 19:23 PM
#60
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1220

There's no balance reason to need to change these. They're niche and have their own limits.

The only real complaint here is simply that a player doesn't want to have to deal with them, which isn't a problem.
Mortars do the exact same job but with better range and no reaction times. RE grenades allow your opponent more room to mitigate damage if they can keep up the micro to do so. Not a problem.
agree
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