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russian armor

Increase grenadier damage, but move RA to battlephase 2&3

7 Jun 2019, 16:54 PM
#21
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2


Stuff

If you're going to assert that grens are high damage then it's not coming from their weapons. In most cases they have, at best, 10% higher damage at the longer ranges, which is rarely true as their formation is so deep that the last 1 or two models won't be firing.

Given. To be honest, I was under the impression people seemed to consider volks and infantry sections high damage, so I tried to play to that perception when arguing. But yeah, youre right.

On formations though, I fail to see how thats much of an issue for grens. Either you move into range to attack and all models will fire, or youre in cover and dont move up to have all models fire, in which the squad id clumped and all models will probably be firing anyway.
7 Jun 2019, 18:38 PM
#22
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356



On formations though, I fail to see how thats much of an issue for grens. Either you move into range to attack and all models will fire, or youre in cover and dont move up to have all models fire, in which the squad id clumped and all models will probably be firing anyway.


It has a lot of implications. In theory A-moving should maximize the value for your grens, but in many cases it'll bug out the formation leading to a loss. Other squads, such as conscripts can a-move into grens and win also if the formation bugs out. It's not true in all cases, but there are definitely cases where it happens. Rifles for example will win out a-move fights in both directions.

Yes you can micro the grens in a few steps closer, but in many match-ups there isn't a very large margin where grens will win, and the buggy formation makes that margin smaller, or even flips it.
7 Jun 2019, 20:29 PM
#23
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

I believe Grenadiers do require something. It is true that they can not maintain the frontline and have to retreat often and the fact they are limited to 4 man. The fact their received accuracy is worse than Tommies and Tommies can have 5 man with multiple upgrades although lack the ability to snare.

Overall Grens do require in some aspect either increasing the damage or survivability to make them more potent.

If anything in my aspect is survivability.

Instead of giving them extra man or extra damage. I was thinking of something different. Maybe in after Battle Phase 2, you can upgrade any of the Osteehr infantry units including support weapons to gain additional 10-20 HP to each model. To give them better chances than easy squad wipes. To sum this up, Grens 4 man in total have currently 320 HP, with upgrade they will get 400 HP. Around there.

I think this is a good resolution as it is not asking for too much or too little.

Currently they are a huge liability to many dangers in terms of being outnumbered and blown into pieces.

An upgrade that provides extra health / HP , I this is a clear resolution. It won't make them too strong nor as they are currently vulnerable.
8 Jun 2019, 00:04 AM
#24
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

I believe Grenadiers do require something. It is true that they can not maintain the frontline and have to retreat often and the fact they are limited to 4 man. The fact their received accuracy is worse than Tommies and Tommies can have 5 man with multiple upgrades although lack the ability to snare.

Overall Grens do require in some aspect either increasing the damage or survivability to make them more potent.

If anything in my aspect is survivability.

Instead of giving them extra man or extra damage. I was thinking of something different. Maybe in after Battle Phase 2, you can upgrade any of the Osteehr infantry units including support weapons to gain additional 10-20 HP to each model. To give them better chances than easy squad wipes. To sum this up, Grens 4 man in total have currently 320 HP, with upgrade they will get 400 HP. Around there.

I think this is a good resolution as it is not asking for too much or too little.

Currently they are a huge liability to many dangers in terms of being outnumbered and blown into pieces.

An upgrade that provides extra health / HP , I this is a clear resolution. It won't make them too strong nor as they are currently vulnerable.


I'm not a fan of adding HP. Not only does it mess with the uniformity of the game, but also the character of the army as, historically, the germans avoided attrition fights at all costs.

I'd much rather see greater lethality that gives defense through offense, but still leaves them vulnerable to poor positioning.
8 Jun 2019, 07:35 AM
#25
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2



It has a lot of implications. In theory A-moving should maximize the value for your grens, but in many cases it'll bug out the formation leading to a loss. Other squads, such as conscripts can a-move into grens and win also if the formation bugs out. It's not true in all cases, but there are definitely cases where it happens. Rifles for example will win out a-move fights in both directions.

Yes you can micro the grens in a few steps closer, but in many match-ups there isn't a very large margin where grens will win, and the buggy formation makes that margin smaller, or even flips it.

It doesnt matter. Issuing an a-move or attack order moves the squad until every model can fire on the target. It doesnt stop them when the first model hits firing range (35), it stops them when EVERY model hits firing range , often leading to the closest model being maybe 32 range or so.
8 Jun 2019, 11:17 AM
#26
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783



I'm not a fan of adding HP. Not only does it mess with the uniformity of the game, but also the character of the army as, historically, the germans avoided attrition fights at all costs.

I'd much rather see greater lethality that gives defense through offense, but still leaves them vulnerable to poor positioning.


You are right also. I think increasing lethality would give them better suit to their current purpose. True to their historical aspect, they should acquire some strengths as a defensive unit.

I suggested in another post also but I think it would be great if the MG42 got some special passive ability.

When behind cover and only MG42 user, the bursts are longer and shoots more frequently. Only applied to the user of the MG42. Since they are defensive unit, they should get some form of defensive passive ability.

OR

Maybe when behind cover. Increase their damage output by around 15%-20% of the whole squad when behind cover. Make it different and make them a potent defensive unit. They already have strong mortars against the grens and blobs.

At least it would give them some potency against blobs which is very common amongst allies as they are a formidable force at most times. In addition to their current mortar firepower which decimates most of the Osteehr infantry. Give them the potentcy the ability to at least counter blobs rather than being easily decimated with the current allied infantry and mortar firepower.

8 Jun 2019, 11:23 AM
#27
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

It is the other infatry that need to be toned down and not the grenadiers that need a buff.
8 Jun 2019, 11:35 AM
#28
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

Why all this buffing with things other units have or invent new wheels?

Dps increase is already in doctrines for ost. Hp increase as well.
If you want either play those doctrines. Like soviets have to do for ai upgrades or better tanks.

Al lot of the complaints seem to stem that x units have this and that, thats why grens struggle.
Because the con gren matchup is the most balanced imo we do not want to mess with that.

Instead of buffing we should start nerfing. Grens are working as intended except the faust bug. Wfa inf and penals are too good atm.
8 Jun 2019, 11:40 AM
#29
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356


It doesnt matter. Issuing an a-move or attack order moves the squad until every model can fire on the target. It doesnt stop them when the first model hits firing range (35), it stops them when EVERY model hits firing range , often leading to the closest model being maybe 32 range or so.


???

In theory a-moving ought to mean that everyone is in range, but this just isn't how it works. Fire up test mod and do some experiments. There will be situations where 3 models are firing against 2 models that are doing nothing other than posing for the camera. Situations where 5 models are firing against two models firing etc.

A-move is really really buggy is the bottom line, and this punishes long range squads trying to maximize their advantage.

If you don't believe me a-move a rifle squad into a gren squad from the angle where only the one gren is on the side of the triangle they form. I've done these tests. At some point it ends up with 2-3 rifles shooting at the grens with no return fire.
8 Jun 2019, 11:58 AM
#30
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2019, 11:23 AMVipper
It is the other infatry that need to be toned down and not the grenadiers that need a buff.


It seems a bit unrealistic to adjust 4 other armies to bring them into balance with one under-preforming army yeah? I understand where you're coming from I think, but it's going to be much easier to buff an under-preforming army than to nerf 4 over-preforming armies.

Why all this buffing with things other units have or invent new wheels?

Dps increase is already in doctrines for ost. Hp increase as well.
If you want either play those doctrines. Like soviets have to do for ai upgrades or better tanks.

Al lot of the complaints seem to stem that x units have this and that, thats why grens struggle.
Because the con gren matchup is the most balanced imo we do not want to mess with that.

Instead of buffing we should start nerfing. Grens are working as intended except the faust bug. Wfa inf and penals are too good atm.


The whole purpose of the proposal is to make grens different, and better at their specific role, without seriously affecting the other armies. Literally everyone is going to complain if you try and nerf all the other armies based off grens being underpowered. Just look at how many people are complaining now.
8 Jun 2019, 12:07 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



It seems a bit unrealistic to adjust 4 other armies to bring them into balance with one under-preforming army yeah? I understand where you're coming from I think, but it's going to be much easier to buff an under-preforming army than to nerf 4 over-preforming armies.
...

Not it is not easier especially if that army is benchmark and is in the correct power level.

And it is not as if the other armies are in the same power level, infatry is being continuously buffed left and right. Pathfinder/I&R Pathfinder, JLI, Shock troops, Storm troopers, Assault engineer...all received buffs in the previous commander patch and now Ranger, conscripts are also receiving buff.

Now instead buffing the unit in high power level and reducing reaction time it is to restart using ostheer as benchmark and start nerfing.
8 Jun 2019, 12:26 PM
#32
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 356

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2019, 12:07 PMVipper

Not it is not easier especially if that army is benchmark and is in the correct power level.

And it is not as if the other armies are in the same power level, infatry is being continuously buffed left and right. Pathfinder/I&R Pathfinder, JLI, Shock troops, Storm troopers, Assault engineer...all received buffs in the previous commander patch and now Ranger, conscripts are also receiving buff.

Now instead buffing the unit in high power level and reducing reaction time it is to restart using ostheer as benchmark and start nerfing.


In theory I'm down. I would actually like to see the slower fights that would come from nerfing all the other infantry.

In practice I don't see a complete overhaul of all the infantry squads ever being done. My proposal is geared towards 'fixing' OST without a major affect on any of the existing infantry relationships.

I just want proper play with OST to actually be rewarding instead of a 'meh' you did actually pick off a ton of conscripts, but since you never captured the fuel point the t-70 is going to wipe two squads, and decimate all the others.
8 Jun 2019, 12:51 PM
#33
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


In theory I'm down. I would actually like to see the slower fights that would come from nerfing all the other infantry.

In practice I don't see a complete overhaul of all the infantry squads ever being done. My proposal is geared towards 'fixing' OST without a major affect on any of the existing infantry relationships.

I just want proper play with OST to actually be rewarding instead of a 'meh' you did actually pick off a ton of conscripts, but since you never captured the fuel point the t-70 is going to wipe two squads, and decimate all the others.

The fact that infatry continue to receive buffs is indication that we are in wrong path leading to vicious circle that will not break unless we start nerfing.
8 Jun 2019, 15:45 PM
#34
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Jun 2019, 12:51 PMVipper

The fact that infatry continue to receive buffs is indication that we are in wrong path leading to vicious circle that will not break unless we start nerfing.

How is it an indication? Units that are underused are receiving buffs. Just because you prefer a different design path doesnt make the given one the "wrong path."

I just fail to see how a "vicious circle" of buffs is wrong, but a move to nerf a bunch of units (which you seem to imply wouldnt possibly lead to a "vicious circle" of nerfs) is supposedly right.
8 Jun 2019, 15:45 PM
#35
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



It seems a bit unrealistic to adjust 4 other armies to bring them into balance with one under-preforming army yeah? I understand where you're coming from I think, but it's going to be much easier to buff an under-preforming army than to nerf 4 over-preforming armies.



The whole purpose of the proposal is to make grens different, and better at their specific role, without seriously affecting the other armies. Literally everyone is going to complain if you try and nerf all the other armies based off grens being underpowered. Just look at how many people are complaining now.


Just because many people complain does not mean they are right.
Grens are a 240mp squad with limited hp. Cons on the other side are 240 as well and lack dps scaling.

The problem is not grens. Its wfa inf and penals and the power creep are. This just will be another powercreep imo.
8 Jun 2019, 15:46 PM
#36
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289



It seems a bit unrealistic to adjust 4 other armies to bring them into balance with one under-preforming army yeah? I understand where you're coming from I think, but it's going to be much easier to buff an under-preforming army than to nerf 4 over-preforming armies.



The whole purpose of the proposal is to make grens different, and better at their specific role, without seriously affecting the other armies. Literally everyone is going to complain if you try and nerf all the other armies based off grens being underpowered. Just look at how many people are complaining now.


Just because many people complain does not mean they are right.
Grens are a 240mp squad with limited hp. Cons on the other side are 240 as well and lack dps scaling.

Grens are already different. They have plenty of choice in doctrines to help them.
8 Jun 2019, 16:20 PM
#37
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

Imo for 7 popcap, grens make wehr army size struggle.
5 man IS and Rifles only 8 popcap. And they win all day.

For Wehr, you definitely need a brumbar or double pwafer late game, so that takes up your army size for pure infantry duties. And then double pio for repair duties only..

For Usf instance, you can go triple jacksons and shut down wehr tanks, with army size to spare. You can even do crew repair to cap points..

Coming from 2v2 experience
8 Jun 2019, 16:21 PM
#38
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Vipper, look at this:
-Triple buff grens to super obersoldaten levels.
-watch people cry a river of tears In the forums. Some fanboys rioting in their desktops. People demanding penuls and riflemads buffs.
-admire the chaos until the very last moment.
-before nerf hammer comes say with a sweet smile. "I TOLD YOU SO"

8 Jun 2019, 17:18 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


How is it an indication? Units that are underused are receiving buffs. Just because you prefer a different design path doesnt make the given one the "wrong path."

I just fail to see how a "vicious circle" of buffs is wrong, but a move to nerf a bunch of units (which you seem to imply wouldnt possibly lead to a "vicious circle" of nerfs) is supposedly right.

One am simply pointing out pokloin that the buffs have not stopped so it as easy to go previous power level as to move to everything to the a higher level.

According to Relic after spending allot of time and effort they found the appropriate power level of infatry in the game and that is the power level of grenadiers. There is nothing to indicate that the got the power level wrong.

Imo

If Grenadiers are currently UP it is strong indication that other units should be nerfed. I am under the impression that many people see ST44 VG and Penal as OP, although I do not have the statics to back it up.

The reason it leads to vicious circle is because there no unit being used as benchmark and thus balance become completely subjective. The result of that can be seen in the Penals and JLI that where monstrosities when first patched.
8 Jun 2019, 17:44 PM
#40
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Hey! 4 man sprinting sniper squad with bonus utility and building spawn for 250mp was absolutely balanced*! Don't bring poor JLI into this!

*sure we decided that 2 man sprinting sniper squad for 50% more mp and with half as much health was too strong, but it's the OKW!
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