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russian armor

KV1 and Churchill can take too much damage

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5 Jun 2019, 11:51 AM
#281
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

Its pretty clear axis, especially Wehr is handicapped against high hp high armor allies heavies. It is akin to making allies td to 50 range/or no pen vet/ap rounds. Imagine playing with this kind of td stats.

The jadpanzer while have the range, its pen is bad, still more worthy than a stug though




This is the whole core of the problem. While the allied factions have no problems with high armour/health units, the axis ones do not have the same capabilities, because they face higher armour units while at the same time having lower pen capabilities on their TDs themselves.
5 Jun 2019, 11:54 AM
#282
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Panther, vetted ost P4, OKW P4, JP4(if it'll ever get in range, which it won't with that op acceleration and up speed).
Also, it appears you have just found a way to deal with churchill yourself, congratulations, mission accomplished.


A Churchill can deal with vetted a PzIV,a OKW P4, a Brumbar without any support.

Churchill has a good chance to deal with 2 PAks/Raks without any support, it even has a decent chance vs 2 Ostheer PzIV with little support.

If it faces Panther or JP it simply need some ATG support and it is fine.

Pls elaborate how you (and not We) have established that "Churchill does need plenty of support". And pls try to learn the difference between stating facts or expressing your (or the many using we) opinion.

Pls try to tone down the personal insults.


5 Jun 2019, 11:55 AM
#283
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

While i wont 1v1 Churchill against panther, i also say panther is no hard counter against it. You need heavy micro to keep its 260 armor facing its fast turning high accurate gun... funny you think that panther shouldn't go against allies td, but here the situation, panther are not effective counter.


The Panther is a very effective counter if you know how to use it.

And if a Churchill is flanking a Panther, chances are that Panther's player doesn't.
5 Jun 2019, 11:56 AM
#284
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17869 | Subs: 8

Why you keep saying Churchill gun is impotent?

Go and compare it to panther, brummbar, comet, premium meds and other units within that price range and you'll know why for a 160 fuel unit the gun is bad, unless the durability is supposed to be its selling point, which it is, because, in case you have missed it, its a damage sponge tank with weak gun, its meant to take lots of punishment, not give it out, therefore it needs to be very durable for that to function.

If you think P4 is too weak, feel free to start a new thread and explain why.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 11:51 AMDomine

This is the whole core of the problem. While the allied factions have no problems with high armour/health units, the axis ones do not have the same capabilities, because they face higher armour units while at the same time having lower pen capabilities on their TDs themselves.

Allow me to introduce you to the panther.
5 Jun 2019, 11:57 AM
#285
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 11:54 AMVipper

A Churchill can deal with vetted a PzIV,a OKW P4, a Brumbar without any support.

Churchill has a good chance to deal with 2 PAks/Raks without any support, it even has a decent chance vs 2 Ostheer PzIV with little support.

If it faces Panther or JP it simply need some ATG support and it is fine.

Pls elaborate how you (and not We) have established that "Churchill does need plenty of support". End pls try to learn the difference between stating fact or expressing you opinion.


to add to this i just tested the Churchill with most heavy tank and panther, it manages to at least bring them to half HP before dying, so I can safely say that the gun on the Churchill is not impotent
5 Jun 2019, 11:58 AM
#286
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

to add to this i just tested the Churchill with most heavy tank and panther, it manages to at least bring them to half HP before dying, so I can safely say that the gun on the Churchill is not impotent


At what range and how many times?
5 Jun 2019, 12:00 PM
#287
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 11:58 AMLago


At what range and how many times?
3 times each close range like p4 lrnght from each other, tested tiger panther and is 2
5 Jun 2019, 12:00 PM
#288
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

Hey guys, what you think of making panther and p4 with armor skirts vet, rear armor becomes 120.

It make allies med tanks max range shot harder to deal 160 damage. Makes more sense with tiering. Cheap sherman t34 or aec still deals heavy damages just because.

Doing so will preserve axis tanks for more AT duties
5 Jun 2019, 12:07 PM
#289
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

Hey kat, yet this impotent gun can deal better infantry damage than p4 and easily 160 damages to all units within its price point. You don't even need to flank, just get a few degrees off front...
5 Jun 2019, 12:11 PM
#290
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Hey guys, what you think of making panther and p4 with armor skirts vet, rear armor becomes 120.

It make allies med tanks max range shot harder to deal 160 damage. Makes more sense with tiering. Cheap sherman t34 or aec still deals heavy damages just because.

Doing so will preserve allies tanks for more AT duties


The rear armour of a skirted Ostheer P4 is already 117. 120 would make next to no difference to any weapon.

It's also unlikely to make a difference to the Panther: all mediums have at least 120 near penetration.
5 Jun 2019, 12:13 PM
#291
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1792

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 12:11 PMLago


The rear armour of a skirted Ostheer P4 is already 117. 120 would make next to no difference to any weapon.

It's also unlikely to make a difference to the Panther: all mediums have at least 120 near penetration.


That's the point. Range shot should be for td.
Med tanks need to put some work coming at axis tanks. Same way axis now have to push, micro stop to shoot.
5 Jun 2019, 12:16 PM
#292
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

That's the point. Range shot should be for td.
Med tanks need to put some work coming at axis tanks. Same way axis now have to push, micro stop to shoot.


Then I feel the need to question why medium tanks are getting long range shots on your Panther's rear armour in the first place.
5 Jun 2019, 12:44 PM
#293
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17869 | Subs: 8

3 times each close range like p4 lrnght from each other, tested tiger panther and is 2


Its extremely difficult to fabricate less realistic scenario, given all of these tanks are much faster then churchill and all of them(except P4) have more then enough penetration to never close below 40 range against it.
In Panthers case, its a 100% win ratio with zero damage taken, because it got all, speed, range and penetration advantage.

That leaves P4, which is supposed to not be able to stand a chance, but always able to escape due to superior speed.

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 12:16 PMLago


Then I feel the need to question why medium tanks are getting long range shots on your Panther's rear armour in the first place.

He attack moves with "U" hotkey instead of "A".
5 Jun 2019, 13:17 PM
#294
avatar of Domine

Posts: 500

Allow me to introduce you to the panther.



The Panther is not only a super expensive T4 tank destroyer, it also takes more than a minute of shooting to destroy an afk Churchill(provided it won't miss or bounce, which it will).

All that while being several orders of magnitude more of an investment. The Stug and JPIV, both dedicated, turretless tank destroyers, have so little penetration that a churchill could definitely just comfortably ignore them. Even when shooting the Churchill from behind, they'd still bounce a lot of shots, regardless of veterancy.
5 Jun 2019, 13:26 PM
#295
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 13:17 PMDomine
All that while being several orders of magnitude more of an investment.


A Churchill is 490 MP 165 FU if memory serves.

A Panther is 490 MP 185 FU.

They're both behind a 200ish MP 50 FU additional tech above medium armour tier.

20 FU is not several orders of magnitude. It's not even one order of magnitude.



Is the Churchill's HP pool ridiculous? Probably. But let's not fly off the deep end of hyperbole and pretend the Panther isn't its counter.
5 Jun 2019, 13:28 PM
#296
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 591 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post5 Jun 2019, 13:17 PMDomine


The Panther is not only a super expensive T4 tank destroyer, it also takes more than a minute of shooting to destroy an afk Churchill(provided it won't miss or bounce, which it will).

All that while being several orders of magnitude more of an investment. The Stug and JPIV, both dedicated, turretless tank destroyers, have so little penetration that a churchill could definitely just comfortably ignore them. Even when shooting the Churchill from behind, they'd still bounce a lot of shots, regardless of veterancy.


Thr panther has been given more AI support firepower for a reason

I don't think you understand what an order of magnitude is, because a Panther sure as hell doesn't take 1000+ fuel

The Jagdpanzer is well documented as struggling with low pen but good RoF and camo, but that is only.relative to its higher cost than a StuG

Penetration at max range on a StuG and JgPz IV is 170 (at vet 0) to the rear armour of 180 on a Churchill. Claiming this will 'bounce lots of shots' is pure fabricated BS when the percentage chance of it happening is a single digit at vet 0
5 Jun 2019, 13:30 PM
#297
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

Penetration at max range on a StuG and JgPz IV is 170 (at vet 0) to the rear armour of 180 on a Churchill. Claiming this will 'bounce lots of shots' is pure fabricated BS when the percentage chance of it happening is a aingle digit at vet 0


Is rear armour penetration on a StuG or JPIV really relevant? They're casemates, so they're not going to flank it.

StuGs reliably getting rear armour shots on a Churchill's almost as daft as Shermans reliably getting long range rear armour shots on a Panther.
5 Jun 2019, 13:31 PM
#298
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Its extremely difficult to fabricate less realistic scenario, given all of these tanks are much faster then churchill and all of them(except P4) have more then enough penetration to never close below 40 range against it.
In Panthers case, its a 100% win ratio with zero damage taken, because it got all, speed, range and penetration advantage.

That leaves P4, which is supposed to not be able to stand a chance, but always able to escape due to superior speed.


He attack moves with "U" hotkey instead of "A".
actaully all the tanks gain more for being close then the churchil as they can reach 100% pen at close range and gain much more pen (and is 2 has 40 range), pather just needs mid range
5 Jun 2019, 13:33 PM
#299
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

I think some people here just think that "to counter something" means "reliably kill it in the very first engagement".

Enemy unit made it back to base for healing/repairs? BALANCE ISSUE!

This is where most of misunderstanding comes from.


I also agree that rear armor of even heavy tanks should be low enough for mediums to reliably penetrate it at least at close range. It was huge source of frustration back when KT and JT bounced most of T-34's point blank rear armor shots. If you have managed to flank heavy with your mediums and get to that rear armor (and probably block enemy tank's retreat path) you should be rewarded.
5 Jun 2019, 13:37 PM
#300
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

We shouldn't balance Churchill unless we address Comet tank first. What is the alternative to late armor for Brits if Churchill is nerfed to the ground and Comet is still in crappy position? Cromwell spam?
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