Login

russian armor

Soviet buffs/adjustments

14 Apr 2019, 14:13 PM
#1
avatar of Loliholic

Posts: 36

Permanently Banned
Its time for action. The sad rejected kids of the Soviet family need some serious help,care and loving from the balance team after being sent to the gulag, kicked to the dirty and spit on.
By these rejected kids I mean the infamous Maxim that still causes wet nightmares to some of the vets of the game, however it has not been the case for a long long time now. And secondly, Conscripts.

We all know the issues with these units. Maxim overpriced at 260 which is the cost of the best MG in the game, mg-42 price while maxim also requires investment into teching. Maxims suppression is awful. Like, really awful. Just yesterday I had my vet 2 maxims sniped by 2 JLI at medium range sitting in neutral cover. It has no damage. It has a deathloop. All around just bad bar the 6-man crew which hardly does any justice to it and one flame grenade will make it run back to the base with their tail between the legs. Except it wont because it will drop a model and start deathlooping and be wiped instead. The cone isnt too great either but it is offset somewhat by the setup time?. Either bring the Maxim in line with other MG's or reduce the cost although i dont think people want them spammed even at their current performance. I would suggest making it 5-man or so but this goes against the soviet theme of 6-men squads AND the deathloop would cuck it even harder rendering it useless.

And conscripts.Oh boy the conscripts. The eternal awful mainline of the game with an awful molotov that takes 10 years to throw(make that 20 if u drop a model throwing it) and locked behind fuel side-tech. Same goes for AT grenades tech wise. Conscripts dont scale into lategame. They become glorified fodder at high veterancy just bleeding you while doing 0 damage and feeding veterancy to everyone else. If u dont go for a PPSh doctrine ure cucked and to further rub the salt in PPSh's were nerfed in cost making them even less attractive and the doctrines arent that great anymore either when u have far better options, especially for lategame. So, you cant even use Conscripts properly with doctrines such as armored assault (t-34/85 and IS-2) or so. One of the suggestions that have been said a million times were to give them a DP with tech, reduced cost or even the SVT rifles from the current airborne doctrine. Or merge the sidetechs.

Now, I am not saying Soviet as a faction is 100% struggling at its current state but it is quite stale to play with the t1 into penal spam/clown car everygame because u dont have other options most of the time. I am not asking for straight up buffs either, if Penals are so overperforming (which i hardly believe they are at their price and tech point but vets know better) then adjust them accordingly. Penals at the moment are just the band aid keeping the faction together and the glue is starting to get old and weak.

With all the buffs to OKW and WFA in general without proper nerfs and now to Ostheer Soviets will be eventually in the dirt crying too while further ignored and hit by the nerf bat. Soviet AT artillery after a day being a prime example of this. That commander is now officially dead.

Thank you for listening

14 Apr 2019, 14:17 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

Great, lets nerf the Penals and T-70 and buff maxim and conscripts.
14 Apr 2019, 14:20 PM
#3
avatar of Loliholic

Posts: 36

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 14:17 PMVipper
Great, lets nerf the Penals and T-70 and buff maxim and conscripts.


T-70 is just another part of the band-aid keeping the faction together at this point but it was nerfed too with the vision while Flame HF only got veterancy nerfs that hardly affected the Flamer itself. And I remember reading/hearing that Talisman, the winner of the tourney back when himself said that only Flamer HF is overperforming, rest is fairgame.. Flame HF is still a menace and a wipemachine. And 222 exists. all soviets have is a sad, lonely t70 at almost the same fuel cost of a t-34.

I am not opposed to t-70 nerfs but there should be something given back for it and i dont think buffing cons would be enough for that stage of the game or that part of the faction. Well, who knows how the meta would shift.
14 Apr 2019, 14:21 PM
#4
avatar of Cresc

Posts: 306

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 14:17 PMVipper
Great, lets nerf the Penals and T-70 and buff maxim and conscripts.



doesn't seem like a bad idea tbh
14 Apr 2019, 14:24 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1



T-70 is just another part of the band-aid keeping the faction together at this point but it was nerfed too with the vision while Flame HF only got veterancy nerfs that hardly affected the Flamer itself. And I remember reading/hearing that Talisman, the winner of the tourney back when himself said that only Flamer HF is overperforming, rest is fairgame.. Flame HF is still a menace and a wipemachine. And 222 exists. all soviets have is a sad, lonely t70 at almost the same fuel cost of a t-34.

FHT is op but that is totally irrelevant.

If you buff conscripts and maxims their will be no need for a band aid anymore.
14 Apr 2019, 14:25 PM
#6
avatar of Loliholic

Posts: 36

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 14:24 PMVipper

FHT is op but that is totally irrelevant.

If you buff conscripts and maxims their will be no need for a band aid anymore.


We can't know that for sure as I said, i dont know how the meta would shift excatly. And FHT was just a counterweigh to the "t70 op".

E: Though looking at it now SU-76 would maybe become the go to instead if u went with cons/t2 or just cons
14 Apr 2019, 15:00 PM
#7
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

My point here is that if you looking to fix diversity issues and not balance issues buffing units is not the answer.

What is needed is combination of slight buffs slight nerfs and/or adding utility.
14 Apr 2019, 15:37 PM
#8
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 196

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 15:00 PMVipper
My point here is that if you looking to fix diversity issues and not balance issues buffing units is not the answer.

What is needed is combination of slight buffs slight nerfs and/or adding utility.


Don't think conscripts need any "DPS" buff. Their veterancy 1 is kinda bad. I think they have bad synergy with their kit. They can build large and heavy cover but they don't have any benefits from it, even the description of Conscripts says "good in cover". I would prefer as vet 1 some kinda buff in cover. They can't win engagements in long range, but they are bad in closing in as well. The Molotov throws so Slow and has such a small range that the majority of times you will get pin or loses models before you can try to do something. You have to tech for both molotov and AT nades which will delay tech or delay more conscripts. The problem isn't the cost, but the time you have to spend teching them while with Penals you get instant Satchel and no need to tech to get AT satchel. I think its not the performance, but the quality of life. It's annoying, at least, to play a Conscript build.
14 Apr 2019, 16:09 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 15:37 PMBizrock


Don't think conscripts need any "DPS" buff. Their veterancy 1 is kinda bad. I think they have bad synergy with their kit. They can build large and heavy cover but they don't have any benefits from it, even the description of Conscripts says "good in cover". I would prefer as vet 1 some kinda buff in cover. They can't win engagements in long range, but they are bad in closing in as well. The Molotov throws so Slow and has such a small range that the majority of times you will get pin or loses models before you can try to do something. You have to tech for both molotov and AT nades which will delay tech or delay more conscripts. The problem isn't the cost, but the time you have to spend teching them while with Penals you get instant Satchel and no need to tech to get AT satchel. I think its not the performance, but the quality of life. It's annoying, at least, to play a Conscript build.

The problem with such a vet ability would be that it would contradict with ourah.

My suggestion has been:
Replace molotov with a frag grenade
Increase AT grenade range
Remove ourah
Reduce size to 1
Vet ability now is "hit the ground" bonuses and penalties improve with veterancy.

These changes solidify Conscripts as defensive infatry capable of holding the line.

Penal
cost to 200-240
now have:
ourah
molotov

These changes solidify Penal as cheap aggressive infatry.

Now there is room for Soviet "combined arms" using 2 stock infatry.
14 Apr 2019, 16:50 PM
#10
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 196

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 16:09 PMVipper

The problem with such a vet ability would be that it would contradict with ourah.

My suggestion has been:
Replace molotov with a frag grenade
Increase AT grenade range
Remove ourah
Reduce size to 1
Vet ability now is "hit the ground" bonuses and penalties improve with veterancy.

These changes solidify Conscripts as defensive infatry capable of holding the line.

Penal
cost to 200-240
now have:
ourah
molotov

These changes solidify Penal as cheap aggressive infatry.

Now there is room for Soviet "combined arms" using 2 stock infatry.


Yea, Ourah fits way more in the penal Squad, but Molotov looks more like a Conscript thing, cheap infantry using "cheap" grenade.
14 Apr 2019, 16:52 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 16:50 PMBizrock


Yea, Ourah fits way more in the penal Squad, but Molotov looks more like a Conscript thing, cheap infantry using "cheap" grenade.

Imo anti-garrison weapon should not be available to mainline infatry, but to specialized ones. (goes to V.G also).

That creates added utility for these squads.
14 Apr 2019, 17:34 PM
#12
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2392 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 14:17 PMVipper
Great, lets nerf the Penals and T-70 and buff maxim and conscripts.

That's the idea... Less crutches and more viable variety.
14 Apr 2019, 17:40 PM
#13
avatar of SeductiveCardbordBox

Posts: 395

That's the idea... Less crutches and more viable variety.


Ah yes, the foolproof approach

Finally make Maxims and Conscripts viable. And because we all know the game is improved(tm) when every faction has only one acceptable meta build available, immediately nerf the other viable options. One viable meta is the way!

Nothing creates variety like nerfing units that are fine to 'compensate' for units that aren't doing what they need to. That's why the current commander patch buffed the ostwind and Pgrens and also immediately nerfed the PaK 40 and MG-42.
14 Apr 2019, 17:46 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1



Ah yes, the foolproof approach

Finally make Maxims and Conscripts viable. And because we all know the game is improved(tm) when every faction has only one acceptable meta build available, immediately nerf the other viable options. One viable meta is the way!

Nothing creates variety like nerfing units that are fine to 'compensate' for units that aren't doing what they need to. That's why the current commander patch buffed the ostwind and Pgrens and also immediately nerfed the PaK 40 and MG-42.

You are confusing balance and diversity.

The changes to Ostheer are there because the faction is UP and they aim at fixing balance issues, not diversity issues. Soviet are facing diversity issues not balance issues.

After countless buff to allied units to counter OKW, Ostheer where simply left UP and now they receiving a buff.

Imo it would be much better approach if all faction where nerf to Ostheer levels.
14 Apr 2019, 17:50 PM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2392 | Subs: 1



Ah yes, the foolproof approach

Finally make Maxims and Conscripts viable. And because we all know the game is improved(tm) when every faction has only one acceptable meta build available, immediately nerf the other viable options. One viable meta is the way!

Nothing creates variety like nerfing units that are fine to 'compensate' for units that aren't doing what they need to. That's why the current commander patch buffed the ostwind and Pgrens and also immediately nerfed the PaK 40 and MG-42.

I'd love to see a replay of you ignoring grens and pgrens entirely and using a pak40 as the meat of your army.

Penals are slightly over performing due mostly into their raw power with no additional investment from the word go, I'd reduces map control for sure but it's inconsequential due to their power and this is compounded by their ability to get AT that doesn't completely gut their AI and let's them fight their intended counter.

The nerf I'd apply is an economy nerf (but also a buff) by making them cheaper in mp but need to buy their SVTs which would be exclusive to their PTRS' meaning that they have improved map control but need to wait a bit before becoming terminators.

The T70 just needs a slight reduction in moving accuracy imo as it chases so very well..
Well worth having a machine gun that works and cons that can actually support.
14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12677 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:46 PMVipper

You are confusing balance and diversity.

They are tightly interweaved, hard not to confuse it and soviets are dictionary example of that.
There can be no diversity if alternative options are not viable.

The changes to Ostheer are there because the faction is UP and they aim at fixing balance issues, not diversity issues. Soviet are facing diversity issues not balance issues.

No, the faction isn't up, we've seen that over and over on recent tournaments, its literally these 3 units that got addressed now that are. If you believe there is anything else that's weak or cost inefficient, its more likely then not that an incorrect use is the reason for that belief, like for example using grens without HMG or sniper support.

Soviets are facing the exact same issues - a limited number of units was overnerfed/non scaling to the point where they became irrelevant - just because you can click to build them doesn't make them viable choice and cons are prime example here.

After countless buff to allied units to counter OKW, Ostheer where simply left UP and now they receiving a buff.

Except, ost also got countless buffs to stand up and allies got also countless nerfs for ost sake, limiting rifle LMGs to 1, nerf of Bren guns, centaur nerfs, AEC nerfs and many, many more for all 3 allied factions.
Ost isn't up, 3 units are.
Soviets aren't up or just "spamming OP unit", 2 units were nerfed to irrelevance, causing 3rd to be mandatory cruch that holds faction together on a duct tape.

Imo it would be much better approach if all faction where nerf to Ostheer levels.

Which is not going to happen.

If you have a flat tire, you fix flat tire, not poke holes in all remaining ones and drive into a tree.
14 Apr 2019, 18:09 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

They are tightly interweaved, hard not to confuse it and soviets are dictionary example of that.
There can be no diversity if alternative options are not viable.

imo:
No they are not, a faction can be perfectly balance and able to use only one unit of each type.
That faction would be balanced but there would be no diversity.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

No, the faction isn't up, we've seen that over and over on recent tournaments, its literally these 3 units that got addressed now that are. If you believe there is anything else that's weak or cost inefficient, its more likely then not that an incorrect use is the reason for that belief, like for example using grens without HMG or sniper support.

The faction just received major buffs, its balance issue, Ostwind change is simply also a diversity change.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

Soviets are facing the exact same issues - a limited number of units was overnerfed/non scaling to the point where they became irrelevant - just because you can click to build them doesn't make them viable choice and cons are prime example here.

No they do not, they have a plethora of option more than any most other factions.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

Except, ost also got countless buffs to stand up and allies got also countless nerfs for ost sake, limiting rifle LMGs to 1, nerf of Bren guns, centaur nerfs, AEC nerfs and many, many more for all 3 allied factions.
Ost isn't up, 3 units are.
Soviets aren't up or just "spamming OP unit", 2 units were nerfed to irrelevance, causing 3rd to be mandatory cruch that holds faction together on a duct tape.

Yes they Ostheer are UP.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

Which is not going to happen.

Coming from the person that predicted that Calliope and Pershing are not going to be introduced to game I tend not to take your predictions seriously.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 17:56 PMKatitof

If you have a flat tire, you fix flat tire, not poke holes in all remaining ones and drive into a tree.

I have explained to this once more but it seems that I have to repeat it:
Ostheer is the benchmark, other faction are balanced according them.

Have nice day.
14 Apr 2019, 18:20 PM
#18
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 12677 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 18:09 PMVipper

imo:
No they are not, a faction can be perfectly balance and able to use only one unit of each type.
That faction would be balanced but there would be no diversity.



The faction just received major buffs, its balance issue, Ostwind change is simply also a diversity change.

Which is what I have said, which is another example of interweaved balance and diversity.


No they do not, they have a plethora of option more than any most other factions.

Yes, because contrary to others, its a faction that's based on flexibility of options.
Still, 2 of the options are gutted means there is no early game diversity. Again, balance directly connected to diversity.

Yes they Ostheer are UP.

"because I've said so" is not an argument and again, tournament performance shows the contrary to what you try to preach here.


Coming from the person that predicted that Calliope and Pershing are not going to be introduced to game I tend not to take your predictions seriously.

That's very rich, coming from a person who religiously relies on "balance philosophy" of a developer that didn't even worked on the game for half a decade and in turn led to that philosophy being discontinued about half a decade ago. Kettle, meet the pot.

Also, I wasn't the first one to say it - you know who was? Fucking RELIC at their BLOG shortly after WFA release. If I'm correct, its about sound capture for WFA vehicles and it was mentioned in KT paragraph, given how KT was given Pershing engine sounds.


I have explained to this once more but it seems that I have to repeat it:
Ostheer is the benchmark, other faction are balanced according them.

According to who? PQ, who is the aforementioned dev just above?
The benchmark your clinging so hard onto doesn't exist anymore.
Its all about relative faction balance on individual comparisons with taking into account possible implications of other factions interactions for at least 3 years now. Get on with times.
14 Apr 2019, 18:20 PM
#19
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 2392 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2019, 18:09 PMVipper


Coming from the person that predicted that Calliope and Pershing are not going to be introduced to game I tend not to take your predictions seriously.


. That wasn't a prediction it was relaying information directly from relic.
14 Apr 2019, 18:31 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 5178 | Subs: 1

. That wasn't a prediction it was relaying information directly from relic.

And maybe one who has proven to be wrong so many times, should have learn his lesson by now and maybe he should stop posting on what is going or not going to happen and accept the fact that he does not have a direct line with GOD so he can not predict the future.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Oberkommando West flag 锤的棒子叫爸爸
  • Soviets flag OrangePest
uploaded by OrangePest

Board Info

254 posts in the last 24h
1172 posts in the last week
6128 posts in the last month
Registered members: 42321
Welcome our newest member, plums985bs
Most online: 805 users on 28 Oct 2018, 01:04 AM