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USF got too many buffs

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USF got too many buffs and is too good now
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11 Mar 2019, 10:58 AM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 994

USF was pretty bad before they got reworked especially when facing OKW but in my opinion USF got way too many buffs over the course of the last patches.

They always used to have good units but were handicapped by bad teching paths and synergy. The USF tech revamp solved this issue but on top of that they got so many other buffs that were not neccessary. It was just a bit too much.

Why do they need to have some of the best support weapons: .50cal, 57mm AT-gun, Pak Howi while at the same time having the best heal that can also be used to recinforce outside of base, 3 different types of OP T0 call-in infantry, free squads when teching, tank crews, the straight up best TD in the entire game, a excellent medium tank that wipes infantry like crazy, cheap access to grenades, cheap access to weapon upgrades etc.

Playing vs USF feels a bit stupid at the moment, especially Pathfidner doctrines with cheap weapon drops makes it seem like USF got endless amounts of units/MP.
11 Mar 2019, 11:08 AM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1

Well I made exactly that point before the patch.

If USF no longer suffer a tech tree issues all their units need to be looked.

Actually imo the game would be at good spot by now if Relic did not keep redesigning factions every 6 months or kept creating OP commanders and units every 3.
11 Mar 2019, 11:20 AM
#3
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 994

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 11:08 AMVipper
Well I made exactly that point before the patch.

If USF no longer suffer a tech tree issues all their units need to be looked.

Actually imo the game would be at good spot by now if Relic did not keep redesigning factions every 6 months or kept creating OP commanders and units every 3.


The USF revamp was a good decision. It was just a bad decision to buff so many USF units and take away all weaknesses USF have had because now they are for the most part just a better version of OKW.
11 Mar 2019, 11:31 AM
#4
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1627

USF by and large is fine imo. The WC51 could probably stand to lose its incongruous lategame support abilites (why does it need an artillery call-in?!) and maybe its crew, but beyond that everything seems to be working fairly well to me.

USF, UKF and OKW all work fine.

OST and SOV T2 are looking a little miserable, but I doubt it'd take much. Some careful adjustments to Conscripts and the Maxim for SOV and the same for PGrens and the Ostwind for OST.
11 Mar 2019, 11:52 AM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 11:31 AMLago
USF by and large is fine imo. The WC51 could probably stand to lose its incongruous lategame support abilites (why does it need an artillery call-in?!) and maybe its crew, but beyond that everything seems to be working fairly well to me.

USF, UKF and OKW all work fine.

OST and SOV T2 are looking a little miserable, but I doubt it'd take much. Some careful adjustments to Conscripts and the Maxim for SOV and the same for PGrens and the Ostwind for OST.


Since OST where and should be the benchmark its USF UKF and OKW who are OP.

As for USF units go, here some examples:
Does AA HT really need to be one of the few units able to suppress on the move?
Does the HT really need to be superior to Soviet and Ostheer and be able to Drop medic kits?
Does the Sherman really need dozer blades to be better than Ostheer PzIV?
Does USF MHT need to be superior to Ostheer one?
Do USF really to have access to so many indirect fire weapons like, mortar, pak how, Major arty, Scott, MHT...
and so on


The USF revamp was a good decision. It was just a bad decision to buff so many USF units and take away all weaknesses USF have had because now they are for the most part just a better version of OKW.

I would actually call them a better version of Ostheer, since OKW still have tech limitations.
11 Mar 2019, 12:37 PM
#6
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 222

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 11:52 AMVipper


Since OST where and should be the benchmark its USF UKF and OKW who are OP.

As for USF units go, here some examples:
Does AA HT really need to be one of the few units able to suppress on the move?
Does the HT really need to be superior to Soviet and Ostheer and be able to Drop medic kits?
Does the Sherman really need dozer blades to be better than Ostheer PzIV?
Does USF MHT need to be superior to Ostheer one?
Do USF really to have access to so many indirect fire weapons like, mortar, pak how, Major arty, Scott, MHT...
and so on


I would actually call them a better version of Ostheer, since OKW still have tech limitations.


I am not sure is the suppression on aa halftrack so horrible. I know i was person who hated m5 meatshopper suppressing on move so it can be kinda hypocritical for me to say and i understand if you hate it, but us aa ht is very wonky to use and sometimes when i try to shoot enemy and chase them, my half track turns around instead of shooting them as vehicle does not chase it in reverse.

as for m3 halftrack i barely see anyone using it. I personally like it and see how medkits can be offsetting but okws free starting sturmpio can drop medkits as well fir same price, though they cant reinforce.

And someone mentioned the free units from teching i personally hate it, not as playing against but as playing as usf. I usually have 3-4 riflemen and then the either officer. If i need to backtech, im still kinda hesitant about doing it as i don't need another officer to take popcap and bleed mp. I don't want any additional basicly rifle unit when i have already additional officer. Imo the tech should just not include officer for free and instead be needed to purchased seperately like other units and they could be worked to be actual unique officer units, not ridle squad with single thompson instead of rifle and single additional ability.
11 Mar 2019, 12:40 PM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1627

The AAHT's really, really good, but after the rework you're trading the M20 and the Stuart for it. If you nerfed it, it'd only further cement Lieutenant as the dominant tier.
11 Mar 2019, 12:46 PM
#8
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 170

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 11:52 AMVipper


Since OST where and should be the benchmark its USF UKF and OKW who are OP.

As for USF units go, here some examples:
Does AA HT really need to be one of the few units able to suppress on the move?
Does the HT really need to be superior to Soviet and Ostheer and be able to Drop medic kits?
Does the Sherman really need dozer blades to be better than Ostheer PzIV?
Does USF MHT need to be superior to Ostheer one?
Do USF really to have access to so many indirect fire weapons like, mortar, pak how, Major arty, Scott, MHT...
and so on


I would actually call them a better version of Ostheer, since OKW still have tech limitations.


If USF are better version of Ost then where are their rocket arty and sniper?

You ignore the downsides of thing like dozer blades... Like nerf mobility, or maybe I should bring up panzer tactician?
11 Mar 2019, 13:07 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1


If USF are better version of Ost then where are their rocket arty and sniper?

In the exact same place vehicles crews and FRP are.


You ignore the downsides of thing like dozer blades... Like nerf mobility, or maybe I should bring up panzer tactician?

Yea keep bringing Panzer tactician in every debate about anything a doctrinal ability when there are stock USF units that get it without a doctrine and while Sherman can fire smoke shell and Officer/R.E have access to smoke grenades.

When it comes to smoke USF have far more tools to take advantage of it.
11 Mar 2019, 13:10 PM
#10
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 12:40 PMLago
The AAHT's really, really good, but after the rework you're trading the M20 and the Stuart for it. If you nerfed it, it'd only further cement Lieutenant as the dominant tier.

One should not have an OP units to solve a design issue.

We all saw how well that worked for Penals when they first where patched and come with flamer and ourah.

And yea M20 is OP also and should be nerfed.
11 Mar 2019, 13:11 PM
#11
avatar of kingdun3284

Posts: 392

Are you joking ? USF is nearly unplayable in team game without infantry company. The time when you having the arguable best team weapon that you claimed, the stuka comes immediately. And I really can't find any OP T0 call in infantry that can actually win an OKW engineer in 1v1 engagement. Are we playing the same game?
11 Mar 2019, 13:18 PM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1

Are you joking ? USF is nearly unplayable in team game without infantry company. The time when you having the arguable best team weapon that you claimed, the stuka comes immediately. And I really can't find any OP T0 call in infantry that can actually win an OKW engineer in 1v1 engagement. Are we playing the same game?

No you are playing 4vs4 which is an arty fest and I am playing 2vs2.
11 Mar 2019, 13:18 PM
#13
avatar of kingdun3284

Posts: 392



The USF revamp was a good decision. It was just a bad decision to buff so many USF units and take away all weaknesses USF have had because now they are for the most part just a better version of OKW.


Better version?Where is USF non-doctrinal mobile rocket artillery?Where is USF non doctrinal heavy?Where is USF vet 0 snare ? Where is USF on field upgrade? Where is USF non-doctrinal elite infantry? Where is USF free nade come with tech? Where is USF base light vehicle protection? Where is USF non-doctrinal emplacements that comes with tech? Where is USF sector deny off map? Where is USF airborne comes with weapon upgrade without munitions ?Where is USF T0 at gun? Too much to say.
11 Mar 2019, 13:24 PM
#14
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1627

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 13:10 PMVipper
One should not have an OP units to solve a design issue.


Nerfing the AAHT just means even more LT builds. That does nothing for external balance, and makes internal balance worse.
11 Mar 2019, 13:25 PM
#15
avatar of kingdun3284

Posts: 392

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 13:18 PMVipper

No you are playing 4vs4 which is an arty fest and I am playing 2vs2.

Early game is quite similar. USF simply have nothing to breakthrough OkW + OST combo that camping at the middle fuel point before LV. The only different is that you have a bigger room for LV in 2v2 which is the only chance for you to turn the table.
11 Mar 2019, 13:32 PM
#16
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2356

USF design is build around Riflemen squads but nowadays playing USF is about building the minimum of them and maximum of other units available from your doctrine.
As you mention it, USF today is about Pathfinders or AssEn, early WC51 or fast M20 into Stuart or M8. All of this supported by a minimum 2 HMG.50 and if required Captain/atg, then CavRifle, Paratroops or Rangers are completing the picture.

People have adapted to the lack of Riflemen value before getting them vet2 with 2 BARs. And you can see this from two different angles, or you're happy because of the variety of strategies it offers or your not because you don't see much of old predictable riflemen squad spam strats today.

But see the other part of the picture:
How are you supposed to beat JLI/volks with Obers with Riflemen squads? You bleed like hell and must invest a ton of munition into BARs. Well easy, you don't build much Riflemen and goes for LVs and other more dedicated squads less generalist.
How are you supposed to beat Ostruppen spam with riflemen only, same response as above, you bleed hard until you finally get BARs
How are you supposed to beat 5men gren squad strat: not with more riflemen
Sniper counter has been even more delayed so yeah here again you don't spam riflemen vs sniper
How to counter dual HMG start? not with more riflemen since they don't have smoke anymore
How to counter 221 start, not with riflemen that can't do shit before vet1
How vs dual Sturm start? not with more riflemen
How vs 4 volks start, not with more riflemen since you'll lose the mp war.
How to counter Gren spam, not with more riflemen but Lvs and HMGs
etc...

Riflemen squad has reached the point of being the weakest point of USF design. From being a squad with strengthen and weakness all the game long, we went to a squad that's mostly weak until you invest a lot of munition on it. It was balance when USF had the upper hand early game but not anymore vs OKW dominating the 5 first minutes and Ostheer brought to equal level with more variety.
And don't blame only the balance team for this, everybody here asked for it, to have USF riflemen squad less powerful and forcing the player to use other units.
Are those other units too powerful? well they still necessary need to be good since they kind of lock you into tech and doctrinal choices.
We see it today, very few people goes for T2 as the ATgun doesn't bring much that early in comparison of the HMG, the HT is nice and can suppress on the move but lack of M20 mobility and bleed potential.
11 Mar 2019, 13:41 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 13:24 PMLago


Nerfing the AAHT just means even more LT builds. That does nothing for external balance, and makes internal balance worse.

USF have the option to choose their building, Ostheer and UKF do not and that does not make them less balanced.

If both build where equally good it would be plus but trying to make both build orders equally good is chasing a chimera especially across different maps.

Most importantly units should not be balanced around that concept having units made OP or UP just to achieve equal strong build orders.

And there other solutions like, one could move the mortar to Captain and make the Pak howizter doctrinal.
11 Mar 2019, 13:44 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 4553 | Subs: 1


Early game is quite similar. USF simply have nothing to breakthrough OkW + OST combo that camping at the middle fuel point before LV. The only different is that you have a bigger room for LV in 2v2 which is the only chance for you to turn the table.

If only they had access to an early mortar, smoke grenades or where good at flanking...

Oh wait they do...
11 Mar 2019, 13:46 PM
#19
avatar of Bananenheld

Posts: 1517 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 13:44 PMVipper

If only they had access to an early mortar, smoke grenades or where good at flanking...

Oh wait they do...

Map too small on 4v4 shitfest XD
11 Mar 2019, 13:48 PM
#20
avatar of Lago

Posts: 1627

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Mar 2019, 13:41 PMVipper
USF have the option to choose their building, Ostheer and UKF do not and that does not make them less balanced.

If both build where equally good it would be plus but trying to make both build orders equally good is chasing a chimera especially across different maps.

Most importantly units should not be balanced around that concept having units made OP or UP just to achieve equal strong build orders.


Internal balance.

Individual units are balanced against other units in the same faction, because that's what they compete with.

The faction as a whole is balanced against other factions, and that's strongest strategy versus strongest strategy.



OKW Battlegroup being weaker than OKW Mechanized doesn't make OKW as a whole weaker, it just means OKW always goes for Mechanized builds.

Likewise, nerf the AAHT and USF'll just always go the already stronger Lieutenant strategy. It does nothing to their external balance. It just reduces strategic diversity within the faction.
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