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Revamping the revamped Firestorm doctrine

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Smartie
19 Feb 2019, 13:16 PM
#21
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2019, 12:14 PMSander93


Feuersturm deserves to be looked into for sure, but the problem is that it can't be justified to buff this commander now while other factions still have lackluster commanders as well. Like USF's Rifle Company or Soviets' Defensive Tactics. Perhaps it can be done in a later minor commanders adjustments / big balance patch, but I don't see that coming anytime soon.


I would agree with you in general but why did US Recon got (welcome) buffs via lower cp requirements then? It was also not part of the revamp season 2 but for season 1.
And the last factions that should have a "right" for complete reworks are Soviets and Wehrmacht, factions which have not only the highest amount of commanders but also of good commanders.

Let me say it this way:
I understand that the mod team can't constantly do new patches. I also understand that the new commanders should be priory no.1 now. But if the mod team would have the time... small changes to Feuersturm should be incorporated for the next bigger patch. The community could also test these changes via the "the new commanders mod" then.
Vipper is right in showing that the mod team already addressed issues with small patches to revamp commanders.
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Sander93
19 Feb 2019, 14:06 PM
#22
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USF Recon Support got some changes in hindsight of the USF Tech Tree changes because Airborne had to be changed to stay viable (ATG drop down one CP, Pahtfinders down one CP) and Recon was left with practically the same abilities but still at a higher CP. It was recitified, rather than changed.

The new commanders patch might be able to buff some commanders in the same way the Commander Revamp Patch did, by using certain units or abilities in new commanders that are shared with other commanders and changing or buffing them across the board this way. Like what was done with Shocktroopers, KV-8, Stormtroopers, 250 HT, etc.

Feuersturm probably won't benefit by this though because there weren't really any good commander suggestions for OKW that shared some of the units or abilities.


We might be able to sneak in some changes in between but I'm just saying don't get your hopes up seeing this anytime soon, as right now the new commanders will be the primary focus.
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Smartie
19 Feb 2019, 16:25 PM
#23
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Thx for clarification about Recon! It's great news that you finally have the time too look at the submitted commander designs after addressing the balance issues after the revamp. Exited to see which concepts make it through!
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Stark
20 Feb 2019, 08:32 AM
#24
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jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2019, 16:19 PMSmartie


That's exactly why i opened this thread.
Maybe the current ISG incendiary barrage could be simply merged to an "Special munition" ability. Would provide ISG incendiary rounds and HEAT shells for the Puma = Both tech paths would provide specific advantages.
Replace the truck with an mortar or let the truck lock down resource sectors, the doctrine would be more attractive and as important: It would not need much work from the mod team.


My personal opinion light, small changes should be added:
1. I think one of the issues here is that incendiary barrage costs 45 (or 40) ammo! Cost is huge especially if enemy can just pop out from the house or move placement of support weapon.
2. Opel Blitz should be more atractive to the player - especially in mid/late game. Proposal would be to make it as ambulance and optional supply truck (merging ostheer opel blitz with OKW blitz into 1 unit).

More hard changes as for example Sanders spoke of: splitting T4 into two stages or add OKW a mortar 120mm, etc. That would of course help the commander but it would also require futher, intensive test. Currently with incoming commanders that's not gonna happen sadly.

And yes, as Sanders said huge chance for this commander and many others are new, incoming commanders which may revamp existing abilities (like opel Blitz).
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DerKuhlmann
26 Feb 2019, 23:33 PM
#25
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From my perspective "Incendiary rounds" are very weak abilities which make the doctrine not very attractive to choose even if i like the Hetzer and the Assault package ability.

Are you kidding me?
Incendiary rounds counter simcity so much, its the only early simcity counter for okw.
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addvaluejack
26 Feb 2019, 23:47 PM
#26
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Posts: 261

I hope relic could put Hetzer in Mech HQ as an alternative of Luchs.

Hetzer is still countered by T70/AEC/Stuart, so I don't think this change will cause any balance problem.
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Katitof
26 Feb 2019, 23:51 PM
#27
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Feb 2019, 23:47 PMaddvaluejack
I hope relic could put Hetzer in Mech HQ as an alternative of Luchs.

Hetzer is still countered by T70/AEC/Stuart, so I don't think this change will cause any balance problem.

For it to arrive this early, it would have to be hit hard by durability nerf, from current 640 to even lower when it was when it was introduced as at that tier, its 400hp, no more then 70 armor party.

And it wouldn't be alternative to Luchs, it would be so superior that its not even funny.
Its locked where its locked, because it performs well and cost effectively now after its buffs.
Its not popular more, because doctrine is completely overshadowed by JLI.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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thedarkarmadillo
27 Feb 2019, 00:15 AM
#28
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jump backJump back to quoted post26 Feb 2019, 23:33 PMDerKuhlmann
From my perspective "Incendiary rounds" are very weak abilities which make the doctrine not very attractive to choose even if i like the Hetzer and the Assault package ability.

Are you kidding me?
Incendiary rounds counter simcity so much, its the only early simcity counter for okw.


Could maybe have them as a bonus tied to the opel blitz. Make em way cheaper but only available if the truck is nearby, or hell rework the truck so that it lowers munitions abilities by 50% in the radius. The flame rounds would be more acceptable at 20mu that 40.
#stalinwept
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Sp33dSnake
28 Feb 2019, 04:21 AM
#29
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Posts: 149

On the assault package, I'd like to see white phosphorous smoke grenades instead of the standard nade.

The opel truck could have a weapon rack upgrade for G rifles and MG42's for Volks, Strums and Obers.

If they insist on the ISG firing those slow incendiary rounds, make it cheaper.
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ullumulu
28 Feb 2019, 10:18 AM
#30
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jump backJump back to quoted post19 Feb 2019, 11:22 AMSeductiveCardbordBox

If you cannot bear to lose minesweeprs for flamethrowers, again, that's on you. RE and Sappers face the same choice.


hmm...but RE and sappers can carry their minesweeper AND 2 weapon upgrades from racks...

stpio can carry only one out of the box...a schreck or a minesweeper...because you know OKW has no racks. it would be fair when it can upgrade both...
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SeductiveCardbordBox
28 Feb 2019, 10:51 AM
#31
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jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 10:18 AMullumulu


hmm...but RE and sappers can carry their minesweeper AND 2 weapon upgrades from racks...

stpio can carry only one out of the box...a schreck or a minesweeper...because you know OKW has no racks. it would be fair when it can upgrade both...


Sturmpios also get to put away their minesweeper and come with four brand new STG44's right out of the box.

They do not need a firepower upgrade to accompany their Sweepers. They can freely stow it for another assault rifle.
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ullumulu
28 Feb 2019, 10:58 AM
#32
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Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 10:51 AMSeductiveCardbordBox


Sturmpios also get to put away their minesweeper and come with four brand new STG44's right out of the box.

They do not need a firepower upgrade to accompany their Sweepers. They can freely stow it for another assault rifle.


someone forget the high price...you can get a penal with miniatombombs, 6 model squads for the same price...while pio at other faction cost mostly under 200mp
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blancat
28 Feb 2019, 11:20 AM
#33
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OKW : flamethrower with mp40&grenade in one slot

allies : only flamethrower in one slot

assault package is trash??? that is just greedy thinking

all SMG in coh2 is weaker than all-round long range weapons(mg42,m1919,brens,etc)

it is just fate of CQC unit


i agree ISG incendary ammo need some pice buff but assault package is no need to buff


opel truck need some more buff range

or change the skill to toggle(on.off)

during toggle on, truck cant move but give combat buff more further

That will be better that now
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Lago
28 Feb 2019, 11:32 AM
#34
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jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 10:18 AMullumulu
hmm...but RE and sappers can carry their minesweeper AND 2 weapon upgrades from racks...

stpio can carry only one out of the box...a schreck or a minesweeper...because you know OKW has no racks. it would be fair when it can upgrade both...


The problem here's the Panzershreck package imo. The Sweeper upgrade's offset by being stowable and giving a repair boost.

The Panzershreck package is expensive and cripples your expensive Sturmpio. You need two to be effective, but two Panzershreck Sturmpios is a ridiculous investment and double Panzershrecks on a single Sturmpio would be 140 MU, meaning it isn't accessible early on when you actually need it.

The AT upgrade just needs something more. Sticky satchels, maybe? Or swap the Panzerschreck for two Panzerbusche AT rifles (they're in the game) and give them Button at Vet 2?
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ullumulu
28 Feb 2019, 11:34 AM
#35
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Posts: 2243

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 11:32 AMLago


The problem here's the Panzershreck package imo. The Sweeper upgrade's offset by being stowable and giving a repair boost.

The Panzershreck package is expensive and cripples your expensive Sturmpio. You need two to be effective, but two Panzershreck Sturmpios is a ridiculous investment and double Panzershrecks on a single Sturmpio would be 140 MU, meaning it isn't accessible early on when you actually need it.

The AT upgrade just needs something more. Sticky satchels, maybe? Or swap the Panzerschreck for two Panzerbusche AT rifles (they're in the game) and give them Button at Vet 2?


Great suggestions! +1
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blancat
28 Feb 2019, 11:43 AM
#36
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jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 11:32 AMLago


The problem here's the Panzershreck package imo. The Sweeper upgrade's offset by being stowable and giving a repair boost.

The Panzershreck package is expensive and cripples your expensive Sturmpio. You need two to be effective, but two Panzershreck Sturmpios is a ridiculous investment and double Panzershrecks on a single Sturmpio would be 140 MU, meaning it isn't accessible early on when you actually need it.

The AT upgrade just needs something more. Sticky satchels, maybe? Or swap the Panzerschreck for two Panzerbusche AT rifles (they're in the game) and give them Button at Vet 2?


AT rifle is weaker than panzershrek

That is not buff, just make them worse

also there is no need to AT satchel

just lowering the price is enough (90->70)

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SeductiveCardbordBox
28 Feb 2019, 11:52 AM
#37
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jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 10:58 AMullumulu


someone forget the high price...you can get a penal with miniatombombs, 6 model squads for the same price...while pio at other faction cost mostly under 200mp


And sturnpios will beat all of those pios in combat at once. They beat a rifle squad if you play them well. They beat penals if you get into mid/close safely. Tbey're an early game light anti-garrison even without flamethrowers.

Sturmpios are really good to justify their MP cost.

If you're standing in satchel bomb range and don't mive that is, as they say, all on you.
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blancat
28 Feb 2019, 11:55 AM
#38
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Posts: 810

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 10:58 AMullumulu


someone forget the high price...you can get a penal with miniatombombs, 6 model squads for the same price...while pio at other faction cost mostly under 200mp


SP = free starting unit

penal = need to build tier building and spend 300MP

nice comparison, dude

if u want "cheap pio", play another faction
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thedarkarmadillo
28 Feb 2019, 11:56 AM
#39
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Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 11:32 AMLago


The problem here's the Panzershreck package imo. The Sweeper upgrade's offset by being stowable and giving a repair boost.

The Panzershreck package is expensive and cripples your expensive Sturmpio. You need two to be effective, but two Panzershreck Sturmpios is a ridiculous investment and double Panzershrecks on a single Sturmpio would be 140 MU, meaning it isn't accessible early on when you actually need it.

The AT upgrade just needs something more. Sticky satchels, maybe? Or swap the Panzerschreck for two Panzerbusche AT rifles (they're in the game) and give them Button at Vet 2?


Move the IR HT from tech into spec ops in place of flares
Put AT squad into med truck, comes with AT rifles and a snare and upgrades to Shreks for a reasonable price. Loses snare when upgraded to shrek
Drop snare from volks.
Drop Shrek from sturms.
#stalinwept
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blancat
28 Feb 2019, 11:57 AM
#40
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Posts: 810

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Feb 2019, 11:56 AMthedarkarmadillo


Move the IR HT from tech into spec ops in place of flares
Put AT squad into med truck, comes with AT rifles and a snare and upgrades to Shreks for a reasonable price. Loses snare when upgraded to shrek
Drop snare from volks.
Drop Shrek from sturms.


good

it is better than others
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