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The Overwatch Problem

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14 Jan 2019, 20:55 PM
#61
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 4



Volks are 30mp cheaper than their WFA counterparts and always have access to mgs and AT as well as early game shock infantry and quite possibly the best AI squad in the game later (Obers should come earlier however) there is no conceivable reason for them to dumpster fuck 10mp cheaper cons and be comparable to 30mp more rifles and Tommies all of whom need additional fuel, manpower and munitions investments in excess of volks to properly scale.

For their cost the exceed the performance they should be pegged at. If Ost grens are held back because of their team weapons why aren't volks held by their access to elite infanty that their WFA counterparts lack? Rifles have to be good because that's it (unless they decided to do something more with officers)

Volks are a lazy,one infantry to do everything you need design without a do everything price.

And they somehow made JLI more attractive...

Riflemen are better than volks at every range, what more do you want? One bar rifles are better than stg volks, 2 bar rifles even more so. USF being gated from mgs at the start is the same as OKW.
14 Jan 2019, 21:00 PM
#62
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



https://www.coh2.org/topic/83846/ac-2v2-statistics-wildcard-qt1-qt2-finals


1. Usf still has a lower wr
2. Ukf benefits with good synchronicity with the soviets who can cover for their weaknesses (no indirect... bad sniper etc)
3. I do agree that penals need to be flattened... theyre too strong earlygame but too weak lategame...
Change to guards mosins @280mp + optional exclusive dp upgrade or ptrs

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 20:55 PMTobis

Riflemen are better than volks at every range, what more do you want? One bar rifles are better than stg volks, 2 bar rifles even more so. USF being gated from mgs at the start is the same as OKW.

Actually volks beat rifles at long range and stg volks beat bar rifles at cqc..

Now i understand why volks are cost efficient... its to keep up with wfa infantry by having greater field presence... but grens and conscripts are now left in the dust compared to volks which are far superior for 10mp more...
14 Jan 2019, 21:12 PM
#63
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 922 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:00 PMgbem


1. Usf still has a lower wr

On the previous patch, before they were redesigned.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:00 PMgbem

Actually volks beat rifles at long range and stg volks beat bar rifles at cqc..

Now i understand why volks are cost efficient... its to keep up with wfa infantry by having greater field presence... but grens and conscripts are now left in the dust compared to volks which are far superior for 10mp more...

Can we stop doing this? I already posted this in response to your post in another thread regarding this topic (Edit: oops, that was actually dark armadillo).

"From my post in another thread:

"I did this comparison for cons, but now I think it would help to do it for riflemen too. Raw numbers in the top section, relative ratios at the bottom, sorry for the formatting:

Rifle squad effective durability: 5.15 effective models

Volks: 5 effective models

Rifle squad DPS at max range: 8.49 DPS

Volks: 9.035 DPS

Rifle squad DPS at 3 range: 33.945

Volks squad DPS at 0 range: 23.71

Rifle squad vet 0, 1 bar, 34* range DPS: 10.835 DPS

Volks vet0, 2 stgs, 34* range: 9.488 DPS

(*volks stgs spike up in DPS from 1.446 at 35 to 1.96 DPS at 34, given this detail, its probably more useful and informative to take the DPS at 34 and not 35)

Rifles, vet 0, 1 bar, close (3 range): 40.36 DPS

Volks, vet 0, 2 stgs, close (0 range): 29.266 DPS

Rifles, vet 3 effective durability: 7.81

Volks vet 3 durability: 6.49

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 34 range: 18.062

Volks, vet 5, 2 stgs, 34 range: 13.326

Rifles, vet 3, 2 bars, 3 range: 64.439

Volks, vet 3, 2 stgs, 0 range: 39.779




Rifles/volks vet 0 effective durability: 103%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS max range: 94%

Rifles/volks vet 0 DPS close: 143%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, 34 range: 114%

1 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 0, close range: 138%

Rifles/volks vet 3 effective durability: 120%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, 34 range: 136%

2 bar squad/2 stg squad, vet 3, close range: 162%


Didn't double check my calculations. Even counting the difference in utility (flame nades, and sandbags) and rack costs, to me, these numbers justify rifles costing 12% more. If you make rifles 260/26 as some have suggested, then ask yourself whether or not the utility that volks bring is actually equivalent to these combat advantages rifles have."

So yes, I DO think volks are operating according to cost. I could do the same comparison against tommies or penals, but there's no point. The results are already pretty obvious. I already did the work for this comparison though, so it's at least fairly easy to copy paste this every time someone decides to make a post that either makes up random numbers, rewrites facts, or ignores how the game ACTUALLY works."




So rifles are basically even with volks at long range, and single bar rifles beat stg volks at close range.
14 Jan 2019, 21:24 PM
#64
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

Rifle squad effective durability: 5.15 effective models

Volks: 5 effective models

Rifle squad DPS at max range: 8.49 DPS

Volks: 9.035 DPS


Also if we want to get super technical volks still overkill with their 12 dmg rifle shots, making a vanilla vet 0 no upgrades comparison of RM would have 5.4 effective models by my count.
14 Jan 2019, 21:45 PM
#65
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

afaik rifles at range 5 get 13.204 while volk x2 stgs get 15.04 leading to your conclusion of superior DPM at range 0-5

but the situation itself is reversed if volks stay at range 20-25 which is a midrange engagement...

5.881 + 2.841*4 = 17.245
4.759*2 + 2.702*3 = 17.624

meanwhile the effective difference at range 30 is relatively minuscule

4.202 + 2.004*4 = 12.218
2.894*2 + 2.079*3 = 12.025

not to mention STGvolks still retain superior moving DPS to bar rifles... and the use of the incend nade can ensure that cqc engagements are relatively fluid at close-range 10 engagements... not to mention that the incend nade imo is relatively superior in contrast to the HE grenade

this means that the argument still holds... non stg volks > non bar rifles at long range
stg volks > bar rifles at short range...

lastly volks can build sandbags... rifles cannot

now ive already done a comparison between volks and cons and non stg volks beat non ppsh cons at all ranges except under range 10 aswell... by that argument volks are overperforming as they beat conscripts senseless at almost all ranges except cqc for 10mp more while rifles beat volks senseless for 30mp more... and they dont get sandbags....




Also if we want to get super technical volks still overkill with their 12 dmg rifle shots, making a vanilla vet 0 no upgrades comparison of RM would have 5.4 effective models by my count.


means nothing... volks without stgs still beat rifles at a range...


14 Jan 2019, 21:50 PM
#66
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:45 PMgbem


means nothing... volks without stgs still beat rifles at a range...



According to you, Mr. JLI are as strong as Obersoldatin, that is.
14 Jan 2019, 21:53 PM
#67
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



According to you, Mr. JLI are as strong as Obersoldatin, that is.


JLI are better than obersoldaten in cover vs cover fights... they are also superior at long ranges... they also get stealth infiltration and sprint...
14 Jan 2019, 21:55 PM
#68
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 09:18 AMKatitof

(psst, it doesn't work if your steam profile is set to private)


damn... id like to show the playercard but id like to keep my steam profile private... any way to circumvent?
14 Jan 2019, 22:08 PM
#69
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:55 PMgbem


damn... id like to show the playercard but id like to keep my steam profile private... any way to circumvent?

No, by posting your playercard earlier in the thread people can already see your steam profile.
I suppose you could take a picture of it and upload everytime someone asks, or you could just say it's entirely allies games and everyone would believe you.
14 Jan 2019, 22:22 PM
#70
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1909 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:53 PMgbem
JLI are better than obersoldaten in cover vs cover fights... they are also superior at long ranges...


They are not, stop comparing them to Obersoldaten without the LMG upgrade because that makes 0 sense.
14 Jan 2019, 22:25 PM
#71
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 922 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 21:45 PMgbem
afaik rifles at range 5 get 13.204 while volk x2 stgs get 15.04 leading to your conclusion of superior DPM at range 0-5

but the situation itself is reversed if volks stay at range 20-25 which is a midrange engagement...

5.881 + 2.841*4 = 17.245
4.759*2 + 2.702*3 = 17.624

meanwhile the effective difference at range 30 is relatively minuscule

4.202 + 2.004*4 = 12.218
2.894*2 + 2.079*3 = 12.025

not to mention STGvolks still retain superior moving DPS to bar rifles... and the use of the incend nade can ensure that cqc engagements are relatively fluid at close-range 10 engagements... not to mention that the incend nade imo is relatively superior in contrast to the HE grenade

this means that the argument still holds... non stg volks > non bar rifles at long range
stg volks > bar rifles at short range...

lastly volks can build sandbags... rifles cannot

now ive already done a comparison between volks and cons and non stg volks beat non ppsh cons at all ranges except under range 10 aswell... by that argument volks are overperforming as they beat conscripts senseless at almost all ranges except cqc for 10mp more while rifles beat volks senseless for 30mp more... and they dont get sandbags....




means nothing... volks without stgs still beat rifles at a range...



So, with no vet, rifles are equal to volks at long range, or at mid range with bars against stgs. In just about any other equal situation, rifles are better... That sounds about appropriate considering the investment.

Sandbags are not a factor in arguing cost efficiency. I don't think I need to point out the issue with justifying a high reinforce cost by loading a squad up with a bunch of utility.

Ppsh cons can/will run up to a squad of stg volks and win. So when they can run up, they're better, when they can't, they're worse. This means they'll win 1v1s against stg volks, but be significantly less useful when outnumbered. Again, that sounds about appropriate considering their costs.
14 Jan 2019, 22:32 PM
#72
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341



They are not, stop comparing them to Obersoldaten without the LMG upgrade because that makes 0 sense.


they beat LMG obers in cover v cover and long range engagements aswell... tested it in cheatmods @ range 20... although the difference between them is usually just 1 man... id say theyre roughly similar in cover vs cover combat...
14 Jan 2019, 22:37 PM
#73
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341


So, with no vet, rifles are equal to volks at long range, or at mid range with bars against stgs. In any other equal situation, rifles are better... That sounds about appropriate considering the investment.

yes they do perform better... but for 30mp more... meanwhile a certain conscript is outperformed in a similar way for 10mp more...


Sandbags are not a factor in arguing cost efficiency. I don't think I need to point out the issue with justifying a high reinforce cost by loading a squad up with a bunch of utility.

mmkay... by that argument we should remove the sandbags from volks...


Ppsh cons can/will run up to a squad of stg volks and win. So when they can run up, they're better, when they can't, they're worse. This means they'll win 1v1s against stg volks, but be significantly less useful when outnumbered. Again, that sounds about appropriate considering their costs.

ppsh cons are doctrinal... make the ppsh non doctrinal and this argument can be taken... otherwise conscripts still get crunched...
14 Jan 2019, 22:55 PM
#74
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1909 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 22:32 PMgbem
they beat LMG obers in cover v cover and long range engagements aswell... tested it in cheatmods @ range 20... although the difference between them is usually just 1 man... id say theyre roughly similar in cover vs cover combat...


And why exactly are you testing a scenario that will never take place and serves no purpose? Put them both up against Penals or any other enemy squad and the LMG Obers are hands down better at all levels of vet in all types of engagement.
14 Jan 2019, 22:56 PM
#75
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

already did... JLI smash penals at all ranges above 10... in fact JLI pretty much smash penals in the same way LMG obers smash penals...
14 Jan 2019, 23:58 PM
#76
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 22:56 PMgbem
already did... JLI smash penals at all ranges above 10... in fact JLI pretty much smash penals in the same way LMG obers smash penals...


Until you have video proof of this occurring with a plurality of tests, no one has to or should believe you.
14 Jan 2019, 23:59 PM
#77
avatar of Tobis
Senior Strategist Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 4



Until you have video proof of this occurring with a plurality of tests, no one has to or should believe you.

He's right, have you even used them?
15 Jan 2019, 00:02 AM
#78
avatar of Rubberluck

Posts: 28



Until you have video proof of this occurring with a plurality of tests, no one has to or should believe you.


JLI are indisputably broken. He doesn't have to prove what the entire community already knows.
15 Jan 2019, 00:06 AM
#79
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 23:59 PMTobis

He's right, have you even used them?


JLI? yes... MG-34 + JLI + volk is a very strong combo thats quite difficult to stop... pair with a rakaten and youre pretty much indestructible to anything but a churchill...

obers? not soo much... i only use them as elite infantry on the flanks capping VPs alone... as i prefer to use volks to wade out enemy fire in the frontline....



Until you have video proof of this occurring with a plurality of tests, no one has to or should believe you.


i will say this again... i dont have a youtube account nor do i have the time to record + perform these tests... i can give you the parameters i used to conduct them and feel free to record the video yourself...

engagement range = 2 conscript sandbags length (10m each total of 20m)
make 2 sandbags at both ends to serve as cover for the engagement... and put a JLI + sniper on one end and an ober on the other... engage normally and watch the JLI smash the LMG obers...
15 Jan 2019, 00:25 AM
#80
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jan 2019, 00:06 AMgbem
engagement range = 2 conscript sandbags length (10m each total of 20m)
make 2 sandbags at both ends to serve as cover for the engagement... and put a JLI + sniper on one end and an ober on the other... engage normally and watch the JLI smash the LMG obers...


Why do you construct scenarios that don't exist in game play? They prove nothing.

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jan 2019, 23:59 PMTobis

He's right, have you even used them?


I just wish to see evidence that they "smash" penals at say 11 range as he contends.


JLI are indisputably broken. He doesn't have to prove what the entire community already knows.


Oh that is probably the case, but them being OP, doesnt mean they suddenly are able to win all possible engagements.
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