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Feedback for Commander Revamppatch

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12 Sep 2018, 21:27 PM
#721
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:21 PMAndy_RE
Guys, after reading feedback, I've added some extra context in bold above.


I am still confused about the "healing" part, will it have a healing aura around it? Will it drop medical bags?

I also think that if what your current idea is what it's going to be finally be I propose just these 2 things:

It being able to capture territory by default, same as the WC51 since it will come at CP1.

And it having a 3rd exclusive upgrade: Logistik Upgrade, allowing it to lockdown territory and provide additional resources in order to make up for the OKW's lack of caches.

That's all.
11 of 18 Relic postsRelic 12 Sep 2018, 21:27 PM
#722
avatar of Andy_RE
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 68 | Subs: 19



Psssst allow it to lock down territory a.k.a. OKW caches. Perhaps fuel only to boost the commander's armor theme. This would greatly extend its use into the late game.

But I kinda agree with the others. The 223 would have to come straight up (0CP) so it can act the same as a UC or a Scout Car as an early game harassment unit. Otherwise I don't see much use for it.


What are the team's thoughts about the suggested Panzergrenadiers/Panzerfusiliers call-in ability instead?


Yeah defs an interesting idea. We have already discussed a cache-like ability as a possibility. We didn't include in my post as we wanted to keep the initial proposal streamlined. Still an option though, so is 0cp, however, this unit would be better in combat that either the UC or scout car as things currently stand.

Oh and Pfussies for Elite Armoured were discussed to death. We spent a great deal of time talking through various proposals for them. Ultimately we decided not to pursue as it was very divisive across the group. We very much expect it would be equally as controversial in public.
12 Sep 2018, 21:32 PM
#723
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 2

Probably getting annoying at this point but I'm getting excited and nostalgic about getting the good old PE back in action:



Edit: Taken from the CoH wikia.
12 Sep 2018, 21:32 PM
#724
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:27 PMAndy_RE


Oh and Pfussies for Elite Armoured were discussed to death. We spent a great deal of time talking through various proposals for them. Ultimately we decided not to pursue as it was very divisive across the group. We very much expect it would be equally as controversial in public.


:guyokay:
12 Sep 2018, 21:33 PM
#725
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3138 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:32 PMKasarov


:guyokay:


Panzergrenadiers (in a 250 HT) still might be an option tho, so cheer up.
12 Sep 2018, 21:33 PM
#726
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:27 PMAndy_RE

Yeah defs an interesting idea. We have already discussed a cache-like ability as a possibility. We didn't include in my post as we wanted to keep the initial proposal streamlined. Still an option though, so is 0cp, however, this unit would be better in combat that either the UC or scout car as things currently stand.


I can't remember how the 221 performed but I thought a UC/SC with enough HMG/infantry support would be able to softcounter it because of its low armor value. I suggested 0CP to give it a bigger window of opportunity before PTRS etc. are coming out. Although 0CP might give the USF a lot of problems now that I think about it. It would definitely be up for testing.


jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:27 PMAndy_RE

Oh and Pfussies for Elite Armoured were discussed to death. We spent a great deal of time talking through various proposals for them. Ultimately we decided not to pursue as it was very divisive across the group.


Right, thanks for sharing this. It's a shame but now at least we know to spend our energy to help improve the other suggestions. Would a Panzergrenadiers (250HT) crossover call-in be off the table as well?
12 Sep 2018, 21:35 PM
#727
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

Wait, what? Pfusiliers are divisive but a passive permanent vehicle maphack isnt?
I'm not sure if I'm even getting this right...
Completely passive Relay would be broken as hell since there would be zero counterplay, you'd probably never even know enemy has 223 it before your priests/sextons and ambulances get annihilated by pinpoint Axis arty 24/7

Fusiliers sound like thousand-times less controversial than that to me
12 Sep 2018, 21:38 PM
#728
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 20:49 PMAndy_RE
223 stuff

Need to add that the 223's signal relay would probably be limited range.
12 of 18 Relic postsRelic 12 Sep 2018, 21:40 PM
#729
avatar of Andy_RE
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 68 | Subs: 19

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:35 PMKirrik
Wait, what? Pfusiliers are divisive but a passive permanent vehicle maphack isnt?
I'm not sure if I'm even getting this right...
Completely passive Relay would be broken as hell since there would be zero counterplay, you'd probably never even know enemy has 223 it before your priests/sextons and ambulances get annihilated by pinpoint Axis arty 24/7

Fusiliers sound like thousand-times less controversial than that to me


The range would be limited to promote interactivity and counter play, ie making positioning and finding a window to use it a thing.
12 Sep 2018, 21:43 PM
#730
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2



I can't remember how the 221 performed but I thought a UC/SC with enough HMG/infantry support would be able to softcounter it because of its low armor value.

The armor value, weapon performance, timing, and implementation of each ability can all be altered. It's less about the cost/performance/stats and more about the unit as a concept. Pop cap can be made negligible if need be. Cost can be made really low if need be. Signal relay can be made timed or passive; limited range or mapwide. Different abilities or upgrades to the abilities can be tied to vet. It can get shared vet, or not. I just think too many people are assuming that this unit will be things (a pop cap burden, a "hide away" unit, etc.) that it doesn't necessarily have to be if the numbers and implementation are worked out properly.
12 Sep 2018, 21:45 PM
#731
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 21:40 PMAndy_RE


The range would be limited to promote interactivity and counter play, ie making positioning and finding a window to use it a thing.

So its kinda like IR halftrack 2.0? It would all depend on range of Relay than, it would hard to balance and would probably end up in a state where its either OP and abused (hello IR halftrack) or UP and worthless

Right now Relay balanced by the fact it costs munition and you cant mindlessly spam it or you'll end up without HEAT shells, and if you spam HEAT mindlessly you'll end up with no recon. I think you're trying to fix whats not broken here.
12 Sep 2018, 21:50 PM
#732
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6


The armor value, weapon performance, timing, and implementation of each ability can all be altered. It's less about the cost/performance/stats and more about the unit as a concept. Pop cap can be made negligible if need be. Cost can be made really low if need be. Signal relay can be made timed or passive; limited range or mapwide. Different abilities or upgrades to the abilities can be tied to vet. It can get shared vet, or not. I just think too many people are assuming that this unit will be things (a pop cap burden, a "hide away" unit, etc.) that it doesn't necessarily have to be if the numbers and implementation are worked out properly.


Sounds good honestly. I would personally really like to see what an early (0-1CP) harassment unit could do for the Axis/OKW and how well the Allies would be able to stand against it. I think the Axis generally get to 'dominate' the build orders much less (like early UC or SC forces an early Raketten) and this could really spice things up. It could also finally give OKW a good option/chance to softcounter HMG or sniper builds (!).

I like the idea of a combat/harassment vehicle (super Kubel) for early game with utilities for mid/late game. I think it would definitely be worth to test several iterations of a 223 vehicle.
12 Sep 2018, 21:56 PM
#733
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

Is there any reason why stormtroopers don’t get the commando/sniper camo? It seems to me like they should be fairly equal in terms of performance and role but commandos are clearly much better, due to the superior camo they get.
12 Sep 2018, 22:01 PM
#734
avatar of Jae For Jett
Senior Strategist Badge

Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

Is there any reason why stormtroopers don’t get the commando/sniper camo? It seems to me like they should be fairly equal in terms of performance and role but commandos are clearly much better, due to the superior camo they get.

Its something I've been pushing for since, iirc, the first iteration after storms were changed. It hasn't made it to the mod for whatever reason (I havent really heard much disagreement with it), but ill try to make sure the issue is confronted for 1.5.
12 Sep 2018, 22:07 PM
#735
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


Its something I've been pushing for since, iirc, the first iteration after storms were changed. It hasn't made it to the mod for whatever reason (I havent really heard much disagreement with it), but ill try to make sure the issue is confronted for 1.5.

Yay. I’d love to play with that.

While we’re at it the recon support paratroopers almost never get the ambush buff on their bazookas because the models physically turning takes them out of camouflage and they get shot at or fire their carbines before they go back in camo and lose the damage/pen bonuses they’re supposed to get. I know it’s probably out of scope but I think it’s worth mentioning. It’s just an issue with the type of camo they have I think.
12 Sep 2018, 22:24 PM
#736
avatar of MrBananaGrabber.
Patrion 26

Posts: 328


While we’re at it the recon support paratroopers almost never get the ambush buff on their bazookas because the models physically turning takes them out of camouflage and they get shot at or fire their carbines before they go back in camo and lose the damage/pen bonuses they’re supposed to get. I know it’s probably out of scope but I think it’s worth mentioning. It’s just an issue with the type of camo they have I think.


Someone mentioned in a stream that it would be great if the recon support paras got the same AT sticky bomb that the Cavalry Riflemen have, as part of their zook upgrade. Which sounds like a really great idea to me, but I asusme that couldn't be added as that's beyond the remit of the patch.
12 Sep 2018, 22:42 PM
#737
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573



Someone mentioned in a stream that it would be great if the recon support paras got the same AT sticky bomb that the Cavalry Riflemen have, as part of their zook upgrade. Which sounds like a really great idea to me, but I asusme that couldn't be added as that's beyond the remit of the patch.


It was me, and Recon paras are stuck in same limbo as Assault Guards from Lend Lease. There are changes that were relevant to both squads in this rework/update but they are out of scope
12 Sep 2018, 23:10 PM
#738
avatar of Storm Elite

Posts: 246

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Sep 2018, 20:49 PMAndy_RE
Lots of good feedback guys.

Regarding the Hetzer ideas: Major overlap issues with JP4 aside, it's not something we are able to tackle with current limitations.

However, we really like Smartie's idea for a 223 in this doctrine. Apparently, a model exists. Here are a few designs we are thinking about.


1) Regular 223. This unit costs approx 250/ 20. Combat ability similar to a 221. Signal Relay and healing are upgrades, which can be mutually exclusive. Approximately 50MP + 10/15 fuel extra each

2) Stock signal 223, same combat ability. Signal relay comes as stock. Healing is a purchasable upgrade. Base cost 250/ 25. Healing cost 100 MP - 15 fuel

3) Full 223: Comes with signal and healing as stock. This option would likely cost Mp 325 Fuel 35/40

All options would be cp1.

Base signal range would be approx 100, with increased range with vet.

Additional Notes: We envisage signal relay being a passive in this instance.

There is also the advantage that there is counterplay to this version of Signal relay, by hunting the 223. Some people do not like the current version due to no counterplay/ interactivity.

Yes, in isolation, the signal relay itself will be weaker. However the trade off is this could be a cool utility vehicle, with good early game dps.

It would offer a more interactive and less cheesy way of using signal relay, whilst also offering t3 OKW builds a different form of healing.

Cost and pop cap 100% subject to change



Thoughts?


If it's actually going to be armored (not take bullet damage at all), unlike the 222, then I'm all for it.

If it's going to take bullet damage, I'm against it.

And if you make both the 223 and the 222 armored as a result of these changes, I will pre-order the next Relic game the second it's announced.

There definitely needs to be something done to make signal relay actually used (I practically never deploy the halftrack buildings outside the base), but giving an Axis faction yet another unarmored "armored car" is a bad idea no matter how you spin it.
13 Sep 2018, 00:19 AM
#739
avatar of NorthFireZ

Posts: 211

Yeah, let's make the Cp 1 vehicle armored when some factions can't even get an AT gun out by that point.

223 seems like a good idea especially if it means a cache for OKW. I'm so glad you guys aren't adding this unit to a campy type of commander like fortifications.

Is the 223 almost like the M20 in terms of effectiveness? That'll be pretty interesting to see and the healing will allow OKW to go straight into Mech and get Luch+Puma without having to spam munitions on healing crates.

P.s Please decrease M20 manpower costs the thing costs an arm and a leg and is way too overpriced for its shock value ;D
13 Sep 2018, 00:36 AM
#740
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2



If it's actually going to be armored (not take bullet damage at all), unlike the 222, then I'm all for it.

If it's going to take bullet damage, I'm against it.


Of course this will take bullet damage. It's going to be a CP 1 (even debating CP 0) vehicle. Nobody can rush out an AT gun that quickly.

And also this is Signal Relay, not Forward Receivers. Signal Relay in vanilla reveals all enemy vehicles on the minimap through Fog of War for a short duration. Proposed changes is to move it to a 223 that limits its range so its not map-wide maphacks but have it on all the time. Forward Recievers is centered around base halftracks, but this will be on a mobile unit.
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