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31 Aug 2018, 11:25 AM
#241
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 559

No idea, I think it's just plain oversight. Stuff like KV-8/KV-2/KV-1 was offmeta for goddamn long I dont think even dudes at Relic know their stats by now after so many patches


jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 11:20 AMLago

Secondly, as NVKD Rifle Disruption is getting a KV-8 may it be worth swapping one of the KV-8s in another doctrine for a different doctrinal tank?
  • KV-8 Doctrines (5)
    • Anti-Infantry Tactics
    • NKVD Rifle Disruption Tactics
    • Shock Rifle Frontline Tactics
    • Soviet Industry Tactics
    • Terror Tactics
  • KV-1 Doctrines (3)
    • Counterattack Tactics
    • Conscript Support Tactics
    • Guards Rifle Combined Arms Tactics
  • T-34/85 Doctrines (3)
    • Advanced Warfare Tactics
    • Guard Motor Coordination Tactics
    • Armored Assault Tactics
  • M4C Sherman Doctrines (1)
    • Lend Lease Tactics


Here's my opinion on doctrinal soviet tanks: KV-1/T-34-85 both need to be as common as Tiger among Ostheer commanders.
KV-1 helped Guard Rifle to become meta, adding KV-1 to Soviet Industry and T-34-85 to Urban Defence could help those commanders too.
It's not a big secret why this is happening: with normal T-34 being utterly useless in mid-endgame against Schreks and Panzer IV (forget Panthers or Stugs) unless you have literally 6-8 of those but then you probably deserve to win anyway
31 Aug 2018, 11:52 AM
#242
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1933

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 11:13 AMLago


The Crocodile literally being a flamer Churchill but doing half-damage on the main gun with no indication to



didn t they changed it to 160dmg per shot? so they have the same dmg? And this is what i would say: OP.

such a tank which wipe easily every form infntery and can outdmg most axis tanks...lil bit to good.

31 Aug 2018, 12:05 PM
#243
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

It has a Churchill's damage now. On live the gun does half damage with no ingame indicator that the gun is randomly worse than the other Churchill.
31 Aug 2018, 12:05 PM
#244
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5026 | Subs: 18

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 10:52 AMKirrik

They are there as an excuse for a rework.


Psst! Don't tell that anyone^^
31 Aug 2018, 12:24 PM
#245
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8220 | Subs: 1

OKW
ELITE ARMOUR
Panzer Commander
This upgrade has been adjusted to allow tanks to spot targets from further away. The Artillery Barrage has been modified to be arrive sooner and at a lower price.
-Sight bonus from 6 to 10
-Coordinated Barrage delay from 5 to 3
-Coordinated Barrage cost from 120 to 80
-Coordinated Barrage range from 35 to 40

The first problem with this ability is that it CP8 so you can actually have units out not be able to to use the upgrade. Moving to CP 0-2 is an easy fix.
Other suggestions:
offer some more utility for the officer like some bonuses to the default abilities of the tank like Combat Blitz and Spearhead
(KT)
Are their model to make the ability available to other vehicles also?


Emergency Repair
Emergency Repairs has been altered to repair a reasonable chunk of health, allowing damaged tanks on the front to get back into the action more quickly.
-Cost reduced from 50 to 40
-Now restores 200 health over 10 seconds after a 5-second delay; previously it was 100
-No longer reduces munition income when active

Sturmtiger
We have aimed to make this unit perform more consistently. The intention is an increased ability to punish dense unit concentrations, with less ability to wipe multiple units.
-AOE radius from 8 to 14
-AOE distance from 2/6/8 to 0.25/1.5/8
-AOE damage from 1/1/0.3 to 1/0.25/0.075
-Rocket suppresses all infantry within 18 meters of the blast

Adding utility over lethality is a step in the right direction but suppression does not seem enough.
Suggestions:
Add a new critical to infantry "shell shock" units now suffer 0.90 accuracy (maybe 0.90 speed or/and abilities disabled) for at least 30 secs and untill fully healed. This critical is designed to reduce the effectiveness of the blob for a longer duration.
Against vehicles the explosion could again apply criticals that require repairs like "driver/gunner injured" and other effects like "daze"


Signal array

could also see a small buff

OVERWATCH
Forward Receivers and Early Warning
-Both abilities have been merged into one command slot
-Renamed Early Warning Systems

Forward receivers could get an active ability increasing the sight range of trucks and sectors for something like 30 secs.

Jeager Light Infantry
-Added to the doctrine.
-Reinforce from 37 to 31
-Camouflage is now available at Veterancy 0

Suggestions:
Lower Pop
Lower reinforcement time (PGs also)
Lower XP value, vet seems way too slow
Give them default grenade (Blendkorper Grenade or a rifle grenade)
I would also consider to add scatter to their default weapons (maybe replace K98 with normal g43)
or
an ST44 upgrade but that might increase the effectiveness of scoped G43 by allot
Turn booby traps damage to incendiary DOT

Sector Assault - Removed
LeFH
-LeFH added to the doctrine
-Veterancy 1-3 now matches its Ostheer counterpart
-Veterancy 4 reduces Counter Barrage reload time between shots by 60%
-Veterancy 5 - Allows single fire direct shot up to 50m

The LeFH seem out of place.
LeFH suggestions:
Vet 4 reduces numbers of counter barrage to half and CD to 0.75. This changes aims to allow LeFH engage more targets or be more effective vs mobile targets since apart from the initial shells the rest are usually ineffective.
Vet 5 allows new type of rounds like, air-bust and/or incendiary or/and WP or/and flares

Suggestions for abilities better suited for the commander:
An ability similar to "sector artillery"

A call-in IR truck. The IR has toggle ability that "overwachtes" an area and bombs it with off map mortars shell but constantly drains mu.

A more interesting approach though better fitting for the theme imo would be to create synergy with the IR truck but would require more changes.
Units can now upgrade with "Infrared StG44 package" from Special operation while Panthers also has a "Infrared package". Now instead of these weapons actually being better they simply have synergy with the IR truck. That could work in a number of ways. The IR truck gets an ability (maybe timed and/or cost munition) that stops the rotation of the spotlight. Now the IR beam could provide a number bonuses to units with "infrared equipped" weapons like increased accuracy and/or lower penalties when firing to targts in cover/garrison, the ability to fire while in smoke or/and against targets in smoke and so on.
"infrared equipped" weapons

Alternatively and as a simpler solution one could add a doctrinal aura to the IR HT that effects only units with "infrared equipped" weapons
31 Aug 2018, 12:45 PM
#246
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2118 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 10:52 AMKirrik
They are there as an excuse for a rework.


Still lack of creativity.

This is not Relic work standard anymore. :(
31 Aug 2018, 12:56 PM
#247
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 559

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 12:45 PMnigo


Still lack of creativity.

This is not Relic work standard anymore. :(


Take off rose-tinted glases please

Relic "work standard" was 320 damage Jagdtiger/Elefant and 480 HP Jackson

Also you need to understand that SOVIET commanders dont need to be "creative". They need working tools to do what they supposed to do, otherwise its Armored Assault/Mechanized Support/Guard Rifle every single game.

Faction is just too reliant on commanders. You cant get away with picking a meme doctrines unlike Ost or OKW

Tank Hunters commander is perfect example of "creative but useless" - Camo tanks? Useless - since its disables movement and adds 85% penalty to rotation. PTRS conscripts ? Worse version of Penals. Light AT mines? Worse than normal mines. Entire commander basically only works on paper and is inferior to anti-tank commanders such as Guard Motor or Mechanized Support

Thats why Urban Defence needs stuff like Shocks/PPSh cons and some kind of medium tank to fight in urban chokes vs panzers
31 Aug 2018, 13:36 PM
#248
avatar of MrBananaGrabber.
Social Media Manager Badge
Patrion 26

Posts: 323

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 10:08 AMnigo


Remove Shock trops from Urban commander. We dont need another commander with that unit.

Be creative pls. :D



That commander badly needs a buff to armour. As great as cloaked 45mm AT guns are they are useless against medium and heavy armour, and due to the slow movement speed while cloaked can't be used to their full advantage very often (that could be improved a lot with cloaked movement speed bonuses at vet 1 & 2).

Maybe give them the 76mm sherman to help boost their late game armour and so the unit is featured on more than just one commander.
31 Aug 2018, 14:02 PM
#249
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 559

Actually thats a good point about 76mm Sherman.

There were thousands of those leased to SU yet they are featured only on one commander, maybe time has come to finally lay off m-42 "at-gun" meme and get a 76mm Sherman in it's place

P.S Do Assault Guards from lend lease use Shock PPSh profile? Now that you mentioned Sherman I remembered that those obscure guys might stealth buffed by PPSh changes too

UPDATE: Nope it appears that Assault Guards use their own version of PPSh that is basically identical to Shock PPSh, but listed as different weapon. If anyone at Relic sees this, please give these guys proper Shock PPSh's so they get buffed too
31 Aug 2018, 14:57 PM
#250
avatar of <arn>

Posts: 5

ABOUT THE BRIT SNARE
i would say that the concern about the snare is real becz of the brit 6 pounder , piats on sappers and the aec .
So it would be fare to remove the improved acc of 6 pounder to light veh , remove the stun shot on aec and nerf its dmg a bit making it more of an anti inf veh like the t70 and nerf the penetration on the piat but inc the shell velocity little bit and reduce the no of piats that can be equiped to one .
lock the m7 mines to t3 tech or just remove it as they are already getting the snare.

just putting out my point of view , cheers :)

happy to see relic still supporting the game and is taking an intiative towards the game . hope this continues in the future till a new installment is coming .
31 Aug 2018, 15:02 PM
#251
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3216

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Aug 2018, 14:57 PM<arn>
ABOUT THE BRIT SNARE
i would say that the concern about the snare is real becz of the brit 6 pounder , piats on sappers and the aec .
So it would be fare to remove the improved acc of 6 pounder to light veh , remove the stun shot on aec and nerf its dmg a bit making it more of an anti inf veh like the t70 and nerf the penetration on the piat but inc the shell velocity little bit and reduce the no of piats that can be equiped to one .
lock the m7 mines to t3 tech or just remove it as they are already getting the snare.

just putting out my point of view , cheers :)


I agree on removing the 6-pounder's accuracy bonus vs lights: that's literally to help it hit without snares.

The AEC snare I think is okay as is. The DBP one definitely would have been an issue, but the current one I don't think is problematic.

The M7 mines on Tommies feel a little out of place. I'd give them to the Tank Hunter ones instead now that the snare's no longer their party trick.

UKF still has its indirect fire weakness so I'm not too worried about it being a strong faction against light vehicles.
31 Aug 2018, 15:10 PM
#252
avatar of MrBananaGrabber.
Social Media Manager Badge
Patrion 26

Posts: 323



That commander badly needs a buff to armour. As great as cloaked 45mm AT guns are they are useless against medium and heavy armour, and due to the slow movement speed while cloaked can't be used to their full advantage very often (that could be improved a lot with cloaked movement speed bonuses at vet 1 & 2 and a faster default cloaked movement speed).

Maybe give them the 76mm sherman to help boost their late game armour and so the unit is featured on more than just one commander.
31 Aug 2018, 15:23 PM
#255
avatar of A. Soldier
Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 2729 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Aug 2018, 22:08 PMKirrik
I wonder if anyone ever considered that giving another OKW commander a howitzer is bad idea?
Allies already facing LeFH spam in every single game in team games, forcing everyone on ally side pick doctrines with Sexton/Priest all the time or facing no-brain counterbarrage spam.
Why exactly OKW has doctrines to cover up for their faction supposed weakness, while Brits still lack docrines with mobile mortars/mortar halftracks/pack howies and such?


Actually about that, I just tested out the Royal Artillery and I stand by my opinion against Early Warning and Perimeter Overwatch but with fresh experience now I got a couple of suggestions for that.

First off, Early Warning, it's a 30 ammo ability that is basically map hax, add to that the fact that this commander will be mostly used in Team games like someone else pointed out already and you have your reasons for why it should be replaced.

It's either useless, because your teammates can provide you with sight already, or even a bit too good, for again, 30 munitions, on top of that you have 3 more munition based abilities and this doctrine becomes a huge ammo sink.

I suggest a few things to replace it:

A Mortar team, 25 pounder emplacement (probably not gonna happen but what the hell, I'll write it down), or as Kirrik said the M21 Mortar Halftrack, this would not be out of place because of the large amount of lend-lease the British received from America and would provide another manpower and fuel based option which you will probably need and make use of more than another ammo costing ability.

Concentration Barrage - Nothing wrong here, if the 25 pounder emplacement is added this ability can become a bit more dynamic in that it will increase it's price based on how many 25 pounders there are on the field, for example you already have the 2 base ones for 100 ammo, that would be the base price, every additional 25 pounder would be like 25, 30 or 50 ammo on top of that and so forth.

Valentine - By itself it still feels underwhelming, combined with the Sexton(s) tho (which you will probably field in large enough effective numbers only in team games) it's a nice combination, especially with it's Sexton Victory target mark or whatever it's called, I'm not even sure if it costs ammo.

My suggestion for the Val would be to be able to capture, like the Soviet tanks at Vet 1, I got the idea while using it for some reason, probably because it was given to the Soviets as lend-lease.

As for the Sexton victor target, maybe it should be like the CoH's Captain Victor Target which included all available indirect fire units, that included mortar pits, 25 pounder emplacements and the Priest, just slap on an ammo price tag on it (if it doesn't have one already, if so increase it) and make it a vet requiring ability and I think it will be balanced, I think.

Sexton - Feels good and actually useful now, combined with with the Valentine and at Vet 2 and it can lay down a constant barrage, but still needs to be fielded in numbers if it's going to be effective, which will only happen in team games.

Perimeter Overwatch - Large ineffective munitions sink in my opinion, again there are only 2 base 25 pounder howitzers covering your entire territory, the enemy can just bait them to fire at an infantry unit while they move in tanks, and again, it's the 4th or 5th ammunition ability in the doctrine, besides the Early Warning which is 30 ammo, Concentration Barrage which is 100, Sexton Creeping barrage which is 50 or 100 I don't remember right now, plus if the Valentine's Sexton Victor target has a price as well and it is 225 ammo that's a lot of ammo abilities.

What I suggest is replacing it with a plain Overwatch passive ability for Sextons, and the base 25 pounders (and if added, for the 25 pounder emplacements) which will work the same way as the Advanced Emplacements Counter-Battery fire.

Or something else that also passively improves mortars as well and doesn't cost munitions.

It is only now that I also realize why people go this commander alongside Mobile Assault and before Tactical Support, because of their indirect fire options they give to the British, this is how much a mobile indirect fire unit such as a mortar is needed I believe, and adding it through this doctrine as well as Tactical Support with their air supply operation would be basically a god send for the Army.
31 Aug 2018, 15:34 PM
#256
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1026

What u guys think about kw2 in nkwd doctrine i think its better option
31 Aug 2018, 15:41 PM
#257
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 559

That would be great if they replaced either KV-8 or IL-2 loiter with it, but I dont think it would happen realistically

Thats one of the reason I thought Anti-Infantry doctrine would get picked for rework instead, that doctrine basically begged for a KV-2 as KV-8 replacement as it was too similar to Terror doctrine, alas we stuck with NKVD and KV-2 is unlikely to receive any changes possibly *forever*
31 Aug 2018, 15:50 PM
#258
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8220 | Subs: 1

WEHRMACHT
GENERAL FACTION CHANGES
234 Puma
Trialing change where Puma now requires Battlephase 2 and is deployed from the Leichte Mechanized Kompanie

Part of the issue of Puma is a commander design issue where both AI and AT vehicles are available in the same commander (a problem with other commanders also). That can be fixed by removing the command P4 from the commander.
Unit seem to need a bit more far accuracy especially since it has low penetration
In addition the gap between the on road of road bonus/penalties need to be reduced since they make the units performance inconstant and problematic once the map get crates


DEFENSIVE DOCTRINE
Hull Down - Removed

Thematically the ability fits the commander, and see little reason to remove it.
The problem with ability is that it is not good for all vehicles. The bonuses should be designed for individual vehicles.
Suggestions:
Rename ability to "static defence"
For unturreted vehicles remove the sandbags keep the restriction to move but allow vehicles to rotate increasing rotation speed.
Customise bonuses to individual vehicles, for instance ostwind could get suppression and penetration


Tank Traps
-Consolidated into Defensive Fortifications

Suggestions:
Increase time to build tank traps (all factions) increase HP (maybe reduce target size), change cover type to yellow.
Allow certain units like assault engineers to dismantle them. Apply a speed penalty to non-engineer units building defences.


Ostruppen
-Added to the doctrine

I see little reason for Osttruppen since they do not fit the commander thematically and make these commander share 2 abilities.
Suggestions:
The Lmg upgrade seems bad for unit, and the modifier for slot weapons unnecessarily complicated, a single penalty would be enough.
Instead of the lmg the T4 or T3 building could offer an "infantry training ability" that upgraded Osttruppen removing all cover mechanisms and allowing them to perform as other infantries.
Replace first aid kit ability with a new ability. That could be a version of "merge" that also heals something like 6 HP to targets.


StuG E
This unit has been added, while receiving some moderate buffs to make it more potent and desirable in its role as an infantry support vehicle.
-Added to the doctrine
-Far AOE distance from 3 to 4
-Projectile speed from 28 to 45

Again the unit seem to have little place in the commander and is better suited for the "German Infantry" commander.
Suggestions:
Custom made vet bonuses/abilities to unit
Replace vet 1 ability with an new ability toggle ability "direct fire". The ability allows the unit to fire directly shaped charge AT munition with low penetration and a low deflection damage mostly suited to defend from light vehicles
Move mobility bonus to vet 2
Replace armour bonus with target size/HP bonuses to keep able to survive the late game environment
Introduce a bonus that increases projectile speed increasing the unit accuracy vs moving targets.
Other:
Increase the utility of the unit with bonus damage vs garrison/emplacements


Sector Artillery
-Now affects adjacent friendly sectors

Maybe make the ability unable to be used in victory point but lower CP and mu, replace artillery shells with mortar shells (less penetration) and increase duration.

GERMAN INFANTRY
Tactical Movement – Removed
Light Artillery – Removed

Veteran Squad Leaders (New Ability)
In keeping with the Infantry theme of the doctrine, the following ability has been created. This ability provides Wehrmacht line infantry with a five-man upgrade, adding increased front line durability, and in the case of grenadiers, increased potency. For Grenadiers specifically, this upgrade allows better performance than the MG42 upgrade in most situations.

-Pioneers and Grenadiers can now be upgraded with veteran squad leaders, bolstering squad size to five men
-Costs 30 munitions per squad for pioneers and 60 munitions per squad for Grenadiers
-The Grenadier squad leader has a non-transferable G43. This upgrade locks out the MG43 upgrade
-Requires 2 CPs

This seems like a typical the "grass is greener on the other side" change that does not take into account faction design and end up in a no brainier choice between an lmg42 or g43 entity.
Imo the ability would be better designed if:
It was upgrade with a tech cost (150/20?). That would give the player the choice invest on infantry or go for vehicles.
The upgrade would give to grenadiers and PGs the option to upgrade with 4+1 g43s increasing the squad size to 5.
G43 profile was changed to be better at mid range changing the role of these unit to be more mid oriented for grenadiers and more far oriented for PGs compared to their unupgraded counter parts.

Stormtroopers
Stormtroopers have been added to the doctrine. Furthermore Stormtroopers have undergone a rework, to make them a more attractive choice across doctrines. This redesign intends to differentiate Stormtroopers from Panzergrenadiers, by moving them more towards a potent close-range unit, with strong disruption and ambush abilities.
-Added to the doctrine
-Now equipped with MP40s
-StG Package removed
-Panzerschreck Cost from 75 to 60
-Decapture rate from 1 to 1.33

Mod 1.2 changes
-MP40 reload frequency from 4/5 to 6
-MP40 reload from 2.8/3.5 to 2.8
-MP40 near cooldown from 0.325 to 0.15

-Can now place Booby Traps; similar to Jaegar Light Infantry
-Tactical Assault avaliable; on cooldown upon being deployed.
-G43 Package now grants 4 Panzergrenadier G43s; cost from 40 to 60. Disables Tactical Assault and locks out Panzerschreck.

Again Stormtroopers seem to have little to do with an infantry doctrine and abilities like "valiant assault" "for the further land" "for mother Russia" seem better suited. These abilities could even cost fuel instead of mu so that the commander is not so much munition depended and the player has the choice to improve the performance of his infantry or build vehicles

Suggestion for Stormtroopers:
The MP40 change seem completely unnecessary since it simply promotes the infiltration cheese retreating wipe outs.
Suggestions:
Cost down to 300-320
Unit spawns with 2 g43+2 K98 and can upgrade with 2 more g43 or 1 Panzerschreck
Bunble grenade replaced with DOT grenade either incendiary or Blendkorper

New abilities (not all of them) for the unit:
Unit has wire cutters (fits thematically)
Unit now has demolition charges similar to paratroopers (increases utility)
Casualty Interrogation (ability removed from Jaeger Light Infantry) (fits thematically)
Shue or Rigel mine (increases utility)

Other changes:
Vehicle Detection replace by an ability similar to "Hammer Tracking" (increases utility)
Medkits vet 1 replaced either by a weaker version of "Tactical Assault"or by passive healing that allow unit to operate behind enemy lines.
Camouflage replaced by "radio silence ability" hiding the unit in the mini map
31 Aug 2018, 15:50 PM
#259
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15152 | Subs: 7

What u guys think about kw2 in nkwd doctrine i think its better option

Maybe if KV-2 was good at anything other then killing friendly units and feeding vet to AT.
31 Aug 2018, 15:57 PM
#260
avatar of MrBananaGrabber.
Social Media Manager Badge
Patrion 26

Posts: 323

How about swapping the leFH from Overwatch with a panzerwerfer.

It could be incredibly OP if used to finish off retreating squads who have set off a booby trap, but it does mean they'd get some very useful mobile artillery that does really good scatter damage.

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