Login

russian armor

Vielsalm

29 Jun 2018, 20:04 PM
#1
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

The most vetoed map. Period. But why?

In my mind it is two related things:
A. The fuels are far to the sides of the map.
B. There are mines everywhere in the mid.

These two things work together to split the map in two. You end up with two separate 2v2 games in a 4v4 setting.

I thought making this fun to play would take a huge amount of changes. But it actually needed the least amount of changes of all the maps I have looked at.

1. Removed all of the mines to make players want to play in the middle.
2. Moved the fuels to the middle to draw play and be more contested.
3. Moved center VP south a little and created new pits to balance. Should just redo the center to keep a single line of "Westwall"?
4. Moved southern mid building to center of map for balance.
5. Opened walls into industrial area to create more East/West play since armies will be more central located now.
6. Added a sight blocker between full health building and right side VP to aid flanking.




7. Removed the extra territory point in the north west. Each side now has 5 territory points.
8. Swapped the munitions to the sides to reward players for pushing the sides.


9. Removed a shed and opened a wall by the north repair station to make flanks easier.


Another major improvement would be to open the fences around the left side VP. Armies tend to bunch up around the VP and are vulnerable to flanks. But there are too many fences to get around to flank.



29 Jun 2018, 21:23 PM
#2
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2018, 20:04 PMRosbone
Another major improvement would be to open the fences around the left side VP. Armies tend to bunch up around the VP and are vulnerable to flanks. But there are too many fences to get around to flank.


Map available for perusal as:RosboneSalm

Updated for reasons above:
1. Building #1 added for balance.
2. Building #2 changed to barn. Mirrored on North.
3. Barn #3 damaged and un-garrisonable.
4. Old buildings looking over old fuel removed.
5. Fence openings(yellow) changed to allow for better flow.
6. sight blockers (red) adjusted.


29 Jun 2018, 21:41 PM
#3
avatar of Odin

Posts: 5

Remove blizzard!!!
29 Jun 2018, 22:49 PM
#4
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2147 | Subs: 15

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2018, 20:04 PMRosbone
The most vetoed map. Period. But why?





Performance.
30 Jun 2018, 01:32 AM
#5
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2018, 22:49 PMnigo
Performance.

There are three things in snow maps that make them render slowly. Some performance can be gained by setting snow detail to low in the game.

Do you see more loss of performance due to:
1. Ground Snow - Footprints, extra layer being drawn, etc?
2. Blowing snow in the air? Effects such as snow or rain.
3. Foggy snow blowing on the ground? Whisps of snow, smoke, fire, etc.

My guess is #2 for most people. The rain or snow on certain maps could slow performance.

However, Vielsalm has a lot of effects markers (#3) that create whisps of snowy fog float above the ground. These too can slow performance.

There are a lot of whispy snow markers in the middle and east side of the map (WHITE DOTS).



There are far less on the west side of the map. Almost none on the right side of the picture.


If you notice little to no difference from the west to east sides, the falling snow may be more the issue.
30 Jun 2018, 23:07 PM
#6
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2018, 22:49 PMnigo



Performance.

Can't one disable snow stuff on settings?
30 Jun 2018, 23:11 PM
#7
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28

Rosebone, next week gonna look deeper in it. I like some changes.
But I disagree with the fuel and muni changes.
Also the removing the smines;every faction can get a minesweeper and also there are ways where you can walk for free(yes for that one has to play this map more often or in custom)
Yellow
30 Jun 2018, 23:48 PM
#8
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

Rosebone, next week gonna look deeper in it. I like some changes.
But I disagree with the fuel and muni changes.
Also the removing the smines;every faction can get a minesweeper and also there are ways where you can walk for free(yes for that one has to play this map more often or in custom)
Yellow

I was not planning on making any suggestions for this map. Everyone I know vetos it.

But you could literally move the fuels, remove the mines, move one house and it could be 4 times better to play on. No one can battle in the mid because of the mines. You will just feed vet and lose squad after squad of muni sucking engrs while you spend 10 minutes clearing them.

Can't one disable snow stuff on settings?

I have an i7 with GTX1060 so I never touch the snow settings. They do not bother me unless I have anti-aliasing turned on. Then the rain/snow effects in the air start to bog down the videocard rendering. But I know people who play on laptops and they always seem to have weird issues on snow maps. I am still investigating...
1 Jul 2018, 00:36 AM
#9
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4045 | Subs: 3

Also the removing the smines;every faction can get a minesweeper and also there are ways where you can walk for free(yes for that one has to play this map more often or in custom)
Yellow


Just because you CAN get a minesweeper doesn't make the map more fun by planting S-mines everywhere. They don't add a fun experience to the map and completely nullify movement around the center VP for a solid 15 minutes. To also say nothing about retreating through that nightmare is another issue.
1 Jul 2018, 02:53 AM
#10
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2



Just because you CAN get a minesweeper doesn't make the map more fun by planting S-mines everywhere. They don't add a fun experience to the map and completely nullify movement around the center VP for a solid 15 minutes. To also say nothing about retreating through that nightmare is another issue.

^ This
1 Jul 2018, 17:45 PM
#11
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

FROM MY TESTING COMMENTS ON LaGLEIZE:

I did some quick testing for render speed and the ACTION MARKER snow whisps are what kills the FPS on this map. With Anti-Aliasing on MAX I get 30 fps in some spots and 60 fps on others depending on action marker density.
- I raised falling snow to 100% density no difference.
- Deleted action markers and 60 fps solid everywhere on the map.

My guess is Relic is not applying AA on the rain/snow falling textures. But IS applying AA on the effects markers for particle effects: smoke, fire, drifting smoke, drifting fog, whisps of snow etc. Or if someones videocard is fill rate limited, they will have an issue either way.

When I deleted SOME of the markers there was still snow floating around in places. Which looks like the problem is with the action markers never fading away. You would expect they push out a texture and eventually alpha blend it away after say 30-50 meters. But seeing textures far far away from markers would say they never fade away. So if there are multiple markers inline with each other, the density would be double etc.
1 Jul 2018, 18:14 PM
#12
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

Quick FX marker example:

Notice the little white FX ACTION MARKER circles that spew alpha blended textures (smoke, fog, snow,etc) for atmosphere.

At normal view on the right side VP, my fps will bottom out at 30 fps.


At normal view in the south bases, my fps is solid 60 fps (my refresh limit).


A choice has to be made to have atmosphere immersion and leaving potential customers behind, or reducing the number of markers so laptops and potatoes get decent frame rates.

6 Jul 2018, 15:42 PM
#13
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

Does anyone have an opinion on Vielsalms Hospital point and Vehicle repair point?

Hospital point seems like a bad idea. Team A pushes out Team B and gets rewarded with free health care. Making it even harder for Team B to return.

But it may also reward aggression. Be aggressive and take the territory with losses, but you can at least gain some health back by doing so.
6 Jul 2018, 17:45 PM
#14
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28

Does anyone have an opinion on Vielsalms Hospital point and Vehicle repair point?

Hospital point seems like a bad idea. Team A pushes out Team B and gets rewarded with free health care. Making it even harder for Team B to return.

But it may also reward aggression. Be aggressive and take the territory with losses, but you can at least gain some health back by doing so.


Well you need something to reinfoce there as well. And you don't get any heal, when you are under attack.
7 Jul 2018, 01:55 AM
#15
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

ROSBONESALM Version 4.0

This map has three SNOW effects that slow rendering performance:
1. Falling Snow.
2. Large Whispy / Fog.
3. Small whisps close to ground.

- All of the Large Whispy Fog items were removed (2). They appear to be the worst offenders. In the original shots below you can see the landscape is covered in large round clouds floating above the ground.
- Falling snow density was changed from 30% to 5%.

ALL MINES HAVE BEEN REMOVED.

1. Before / After LEFT side of map.
- Added Building A.
- Changed Buildings B.
- Moved Building C.
- Added Building D.
- Added Building E to mirror north area.
- Removed two houses by old fuel location.
- Repositioned Muni, Fuel, VP, Hospital.
ORIGINAL

MODIFIED


2. Before / After RIGHT side of the map.
- Moved two buildings for balance.
- Opened industrial area to fight East/West.
- Repositioned Muni, Fuel, VP. Removed repair center and added Hospital.
- Opened East VP area and added cover at the end of each wall section.
- Moved Northern most point.
- Added Building A for balance.
ORIGINAL

MODIFED



3. Before / After Map Points
- Early modified version had fuels moved to center North / South. Fuels are now located closer to the old VP positions. Teams will now fight for the fuels in those areas. Fuels are closer to mid and fuel cutoffs have been added to draw even more attention to mid.
- Munitions moved to center North/South to draw play to center.
- VPs were moved to the far corners to draw play to those rarely seen areas.
- Removed the East repair station point. Replaced with mirroring Hospital point.
- Removed the extra territory point in the south west. South had 6, North had 5.
ORIGINAL

MODIFIED


4. Terrain Cover was slightly modified.


5. Modified MiniMap
7 Jul 2018, 23:53 PM
#16
avatar of nigo
Senior Editor Badge

Posts: 2147 | Subs: 15

Looks like much better.
12 Jul 2018, 09:50 AM
#17
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28



First of all thx for your time man!
But i told you already in one of my streams about the situation in vielsam.
I watched today your new version and i have sadly to say i disagree with some changes.
I made a video for you Rosebone. And i think it would be easier to start from the automatch version again.
Your new made map looks really great! But from gameplay I have to disagree. Also from the old style of vielsam. In your version a lot of fightings points are completed useless now.



16 Jul 2018, 04:50 AM
#18
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1461 | Subs: 2

VIELSALM UPDATE VERSION 5

(8) Rosbone Vielsalm (v5)
I have kept the heavily modified version as a separate map on the old Steam Link. It is too good to take downB-)

Changes made as per the Sturmpanther video in #17
X = changed, - = not changed
x 1. Remove extra territory point.
x 2. Make TPs 2 per side then 1 and 1 in mid.
x 3. Fuel, Muni, VP all stay.
x 4. Change east repair station to medic station.
x 5. Remove the shed on right medic station. Can remove some walls as well.
X 6. Can also cut wall by right VP.
X 7. Building in mid has two doors. Not too big.
- 8. Can delete a house by left fuel and left VP.
X 9. Remove red cover road from south base to right side.
X 10. Remove S-mine fields.
X 11. Can move mid VP for pathing.
- 12. Can adjust the green cover around mid VP. Maybe make them closer to the VP.
X 13. Remove red cover on right fuel.
X 14. Put house or green cover by right fuel.

CHANGES NOT ON LIST
15. Removed FX markers for heavy fog/snow FPS killers.
16. Reduced snow density for improved FPS.
17. Reoriented ground snow FX markers to blow the same direction as the snow(W->E).
18. Reduced size of right VP territory for USF lockdown.
19. Balanced Red cover on West side of map.







16 Jul 2018, 09:58 AM
#19
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jul 2018, 04:50 AMRosbone
VIELSALM UPDATE VERSION 5

(8) Rosbone Vielsalm (v5)
I have kept the heavily modified version as a separate map on the old Steam Link. It is too good to take downB-)

Changes made as per the Sturmpanther video in #17
X = changed, - = not changed
x 1. Remove extra territory point.
x 2. Make TPs 2 per side then 1 and 1 in mid.
x 3. Fuel, Muni, VP all stay.
x 4. Change east repair station to medic station.
x 5. Remove the shed on right medic station. Can remove some walls as well.
X 6. Can also cut wall by right VP.
X 7. Building in mid has two doors. Not too big.
- 8. Can delete a house by left fuel and left VP.
X 9. Remove red cover road from south base to right side.
X 10. Remove S-mine fields.
X 11. Can move mid VP for pathing.
- 12. Can adjust the green cover around mid VP. Maybe make them closer to the VP.
X 13. Remove red cover on right fuel.
X 14. Put house or green cover by right fuel.

CHANGES NOT ON LIST
15. Removed FX markers for heavy fog/snow FPS killers.
16. Reduced snow density for improved FPS.
17. Reoriented ground snow FX markers to blow the same direction as the snow(W->E).
18. Reduced size of right VP territory for USF lockdown.
19. Balanced Red cover on West side of map.









Thank you. :thumbsup:
Will watch it again.
23 Jul 2018, 12:37 PM
#20
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5384 | Subs: 28

1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest
Autumn Open

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Soviets flag Scoped
  • U.S. Forces flag NiteNite
  • Ostheer flag Imperial Dane
  • Ostheer flag HelpingHans
uploaded by Scoped

Board Info

158 users are online: 2 members and 156 guests
Mithiriath, ullumulu
45 posts in the last 24h
378 posts in the last week
1738 posts in the last month
Registered members: 25960
Welcome our newest member, roarstechnologies
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM