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I strongly oppose the Soviet sniper change

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25 Apr 2018, 15:56 PM
#101
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 15:47 PMzarok47


You wanna know why grenadiers have higher dps then their con brethern?

4 for 6 man

2 more rifle's AND 2 more bodies to drop. Math behind it translates into roughly 2.5 more dps required to be Equal.

As for dps on long range, it's a joke since grens are moving, mostly at 3 men or less and firing vs a cloaking target.

The only way to kill a sniper is with another sniper, and the 1 man change will not change that.

And if you want to go back to sov sniper utterly destroying ostheer, please make it fire as fast as ost sniper.


Ok, I will repeat my point for one more person, but no more, as it getting annoying...

Current patch notes:
Cons high HP pool, low dps = Grens low HP pool, high dps
Sniper Team high HP pool, low dps = Wehrmacht Sniper low HP pool, high dps


New patch notes:
Brand New Lonely Soviet Sniper low HP pool, buffed but still low(er) DPS =/= Wehrmacht Sniper low HP pool, still high(er) dps

Where is logic behind this change?
Not even logic but... just old plain and simple consistency?

EDIT: I'll reverse question to make it more obvious:
why does Wehrmacht sniper after patch have same durability as Soviet one even though it faces less overall DPS?
25 Apr 2018, 15:59 PM
#102
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



Ok, I will repeat my point for one more person, but no more, as it getting annoying...

Current patch notes:
Cons high HP pool, low dps = Grens low HP pool, high dps
Sniper Team high HP pool, low dps = Wehrmacht Sniper low HP pool, high dps


New patch notes:
Brand New Lonely Soviet Sniper low HP pool, buffed but still low(er) DPS =/= Wehrmacht Sniper low HP pool, still high(er) dps

Where is logic behind this change?
Not even logic but... just old plain and simple consistency?


Ah man, you completely missed Zarok's point:

Cons: Low DPS per model x 6 men = Same DPS as grenadier (who has higher DPS per model)

Therefore, even so conscript models have lower DPS than Grenadier models, since you're not likely to be chasing down snipers with 1 man conscript squads, the DPS of a 6 man conscript chasing an axis sniper is basically equal to the DPS of a 4 man grenadier squad chasing a soviet sniper.

Do you understand now?

Oh, and don't forget that Soviets get Oorah! ability to close the gap even easier. :snfPeter:
25 Apr 2018, 15:59 PM
#103
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 15:50 PMNosliw


Fixed that for you.

There is a reason why good soviet players like Rutra never lose their snipers to anything other than Panzer Werfers or Stuka - it's just so easy to keep them alive against both charging and even flanking grenadiers.


I am talking about the firepower of Grenadier, not discussing how to avoid Grenadier or skills in using Soviet sniper.



25 Apr 2018, 16:00 PM
#104
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



I am talking about the firepower of Grenadier, not discussing how to avoid Grenadier or skills in using Soviet sniper.





Please refer to above posts where Zarok and I clearly explain the difference between single model DPS versus total squad DPS.
25 Apr 2018, 16:05 PM
#105
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:00 PMNosliw


Please refer to above posts where Zarok and I clearly explain the difference between single model DPS versus total squad DPS.



Read it carefully before you cut/modify others opinion.

Don't you know it is impolite to modify others' comments without permission?
25 Apr 2018, 16:06 PM
#106
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 15:59 PMNosliw


Ah man, you completely missed Zarok's point:

Cons: Low DPS per model x 6 men = Same DPS as grenadier (who has higher DPS per model)

Therefore, even so conscript models have lower DPS than Grenadier models, since you're not likely to be chasing down snipers with 1 man conscript squads, the DPS of a 6 man conscript chasing an axis sniper is basically equal to the DPS of a 4 man grenadier squad chasing a soviet sniper.

Do you understand now?

Oh, and don't forget that Soviets get Oorah! ability to close the gap even easier. :snfPeter:


I get your point.

I'm not sure if Total DPS of Cons = Total DPS of Grens. Otherwise Cons would always win against Grens at any range just because Cons have more EHP.

Can you (or anybody?) provide link to some reliable source of unit stats so I could double-check it?

And Oorah is quite useless for chasing as it removes shooting on the move.
25 Apr 2018, 16:06 PM
#107
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

Even better, imagine this common scenario:

Grenadier runs toward a lonely Soviet sniper. The sniper gets off 1 shot before the Grenadier comes into range. The grenadier has now lost 1 man, and thus 25% of the squads firepower. The soviet sniper can now retreat while being attacked by a squad at 75% power.

Conscript runs toward a lonely Axis sniper. The sniper gets off 1 shot before the Conscript comes into range. The conscript has now lost 1 man, and thus 16.7% of the squads firepower. The axis sniper can now retreat while being attacked by a squad at 83.3% power.

Get the picture?
25 Apr 2018, 16:12 PM
#108
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:06 PMNosliw
Even better, imagine this common scenario:

Grenadier runs toward a lonely Soviet sniper. The sniper gets off 1 shot before the Grenadier comes into range. The grenadier (who has same total squad DPS) has now lost 1 man, and thus 25% of the squads firepower. The soviet sniper can now retreat while being attacked by a squad at 75% power.

Conscript runs toward a lonely Axis sniper. The sniper gets off 1 shot before the Conscript comes into range. The conscript (who has the same total squad DPS) has now lost 1 man, and thus 16.7% of the squads firepower. The axis sniper can now retreat while being attacked by a squad at 83.3% power.

Get the picture?


Yes, that's a good point, but things change if you add LMG42 on top of Grens, which shifts HUGE portion of their DPS to a single model.

It also have "side effect" (irrelevant if shooting one-man sniper, but relevant if it is two-man sniper team) of focusing that portion of DPS on a single model, unlike Cons, who usually spread their DPS around several models. Well, in case of Cons shooting sniper that's still one model :D
25 Apr 2018, 16:17 PM
#109
avatar of #12345678

Posts: 69



I get your point.

I'm not sure if Total DPS of Cons = Total DPS of Grens. Otherwise Cons would always win against Grens at any range just because Cons have more EHP.

Can you (or anybody?) provide link to some reliable source of unit stats so I could double-check it?

And Oorah is quite useless for chasing as it removes shooting on the move.


I remembered that DPS of cons close to Grens in close range, but Grens are far better in long range. That's from one of Mr. Smith's thread in this forum about the last Winter update.

Also, a LMG42 equiped Grenadier has at least 50% firepower from the MG, so lose one/two models are not losing too much firepower.

Finally, don't try to argue with those without a playercard. You don't even know if he plays the game or just a Lv.1 rookie.
25 Apr 2018, 16:20 PM
#110
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



I remembered that DPS of cons close to Grens in close range, but Grens are far better in long range. That's from one of Mr. Smith's thread in this forum about the last Winter update.

Also, a LMG42 equiped Grenadier has at least 50% firepower from the MG, so lose one/two models are not losing too much firepower.

Finally, don't try to argue with those without a playercard. You don't even know if he plays the game or just a Lv.1 rookie.


https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197985783392

And you keep forgetting that LMGs don't shoot while running. As long as the sniper is retreating or just walking away from the Grenadier, the LMG will never fire.
25 Apr 2018, 16:40 PM
#111
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 15:54 PMNosliw


God forbid we bring back the old sniper system, where the player who microes his sniper better wins the sniper war. You're right, I much prefer the unbalanced CoH2 sniper system, where the Soviet sniper is so good that axis players don't even bother making a counter sniper :snfPeter:

That old system is responsible for one of the most cancerous meta in CoH history...

The one thing I thought to myself when I've seen CoH2 soviet recon team for the first time was "GOD YES, finally no more sniper wars bullshit" and then brits came and now this.

And having your sniper on hold for 30 minutes while microing from cover to cover, waiting until your opponent shoots first is -NOT- an interesting gameplay dynamic or fun to watch micro.
25 Apr 2018, 16:44 PM
#112
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:40 PMKatitof

That old system is responsible for one of the most cancerous meta in CoH history...

The one thing I thought to myself when I've seen CoH2 soviet recon team for the first time was "GOD YES, finally no more sniper wars bullshit" and then brits came and now this.

And having your sniper on hold for 30 minutes while microing from cover to cover, waiting until your opponent shoots first is -NOT- an interesting gameplay dynamic or fun to watch micro.


Dunno what games that you're watching where snipers sit and never do anything... good sniper players will fire continuously, since they will know when and where theey are safe.

And you're right, the soviet sniper spam meta and far less cancerous...
25 Apr 2018, 16:50 PM
#113
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:40 PMKatitof
That old system is responsible for one of the most cancerous meta in CoH history...

The one thing I thought to myself when I've seen CoH2 soviet recon team for the first time was "GOD YES, finally no more sniper wars bullshit" and then brits came and now this.

And having your sniper on hold for 30 minutes while microing from cover to cover, waiting until your opponent shoots first is -NOT- an interesting gameplay dynamic or fun to watch micro.


I've actually yet to see anyone say they want the Soviet sniper to be vulnerable to countersnipes. There just seems to be this broad assumption that making the squad one man is somehow necessary to reduce its survivability.

It's not. Received accuracy and health are what determines its survivability. The only reason I can see to make it one man is to make it countersnipeable.
25 Apr 2018, 16:51 PM
#114
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:50 PMLago


I've actually yet to see anyone say they want the Soviet sniper to be vulnerable to countersnipes. There just seems to be this broad assumption that making the squad one man is somehow necessary to reduce its survivability.

It's not. Received accuracy and health are what determines its survivability. The only reason I can see to make it one man is to make it countersnipeable.


God forbid Soviets actually have a unit on equal playing field with other factions.
25 Apr 2018, 16:54 PM
#115
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:51 PMNosliw


God forbid Soviets actually have a unit on equal playing field with other factions.


Erm what? Are you trying to imply all Soviet units are OP? Even SHOCKS? lol

And why are you even discussing balance when you arent playing the game anymore. Makes no sense.
25 Apr 2018, 16:58 PM
#116
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515



Erm what? Are you trying to imply all Soviet units are OP? Even SHOCKS? lol

And why are you even discussing balance when you arent playing the game anymore. Makes no sense.


https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561197985783392

I meant, Soviets have 6 man weapon teams for some odd reason, and big sniper teams... for seemingly no other reason than "flavour", but in terms of gameplay it doesn't add much except make soviet units more survivable.
25 Apr 2018, 17:01 PM
#118
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Ok. so 6 men are automatically better than 4 men squads no matter their actual stats. thats ur point.

Makes a lot of sense. 10/10
25 Apr 2018, 17:01 PM
#119
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Apr 2018, 16:51 PMNosliw
God forbid Soviets actually have a unit on equal playing field with other factions.


I like the two man squad. :(

My point is that the 2-man to 1-man change is only necessary to make it vulnerable to countersnipes: sniper durability and sniper countersnipe vulnerability are independent variables.

If the balance team decide that being able to countersnipe a Scout Sniper Squad is better for the game then I'll just have to trust them on that.
25 Apr 2018, 17:02 PM
#120
avatar of Nosliw

Posts: 515

Ok. so 6 men are automatically better than 4 men squads no matter their actual stats. thats ur point.

Makes a lot of sense. 10/10


Bro I said 6 men are more survivable. 6 x 80 health on an AT gun is better than 4 x 80 health... that's just basic math.
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