Mortars/Indirect have broken the game
8 Mar 2018, 20:28 PM
#21
Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1
brits have broken the game more
8 Mar 2018, 22:48 PM
#22
Posts: 2742
Fixed in the patch, friendly fire arty hurts now, even if it didn't, it's an awful solution to a problem of an over performing mortar...
Did it? Man it was never something I did in games and I've barely played since patch that Id forgotten if that had been implemented.
. It was a hard sell before to get it even considered for fixing.Good then. I'm glad my pseudo snarky comment isn't actually accurate anymore.
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9 Mar 2018, 03:01 AM
#23
Posts: 5279
Personally I'd like to see all indirect weapons reworked to work the same way as howitzers do: remove their basic attack and buff their barrage to compensate.
Mortars should be strong against static defences (both emplacements and camping infantry) but their current direct targeting of infantry squads makes them punish moving squads equally.
This is a change i support. Units with no/minimal micro but can wipe based on a dice roll is just bad. Barrages should be where its at.
However: with that big of a cut in performance i think they should probably be able to flee with a single model same as the 120mm (who tbh shouldnt be able to) but thats just gravy to me.
#stalinwept
9 Mar 2018, 09:37 AM
#24
Posts: 365
I do not understand why people hate on the 120mm mortar. Sure it makes for bigger booms from further away than the standard non-doctrinal mortars but the drawback is slower deploy, reload and movement speed on top of it's higher MP cost.
"Flavor" wise, the fact that it can retreat with 1 model makes sense though I can imagine how frustrating that can be to axis players in a balance sense. I always have a 120mm mortar commander in my rotation because you never know when you are going to get the Ost player bunching up a 3 mortar opener just begging to be exploited.
"Flavor" wise, the fact that it can retreat with 1 model makes sense though I can imagine how frustrating that can be to axis players in a balance sense. I always have a 120mm mortar commander in my rotation because you never know when you are going to get the Ost player bunching up a 3 mortar opener just begging to be exploited.
9 Mar 2018, 10:11 AM
#25
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
I do not understand why people hate on the 120mm mortar. Sure it makes for bigger booms from further away than the standard non-doctrinal mortars but the drawback is slower deploy, reload and movement speed on top of it's higher MP cost.
Try playing OKW and have your truck attack with a weapon that you little means to fire back at and you might understand.
The 120 does not have slower movement speed, that is incorrect.
"Flavor" wise, the fact that it can retreat with 1 model makes sense though I can imagine how frustrating that can be to axis players in a balance sense. I always have a 120mm mortar commander in my rotation because you never know when you are going to get the Ost player bunching up a 3 mortar opener just begging to be exploited.
"flavor" wise the Rakketen crew having a target size of 1.25 made sense, it even made sense balance wise since Rakketen are notorious for dying with 1 shot, yet that was considered and Bug and was "normalized".
9 Mar 2018, 11:25 AM
#26
1 
Posts: 609
A key issue with the 120 is that it’s range keeps it so far back from the action that it’s hard to counter and if you take the risk to go deep to kill it it’s 6man squad and survival with one model means this is rarely rewarded.
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9 Mar 2018, 12:11 PM
#27
Posts: 1220
Wermaht mortar have broken the game more
9 Mar 2018, 12:32 PM
#28
Posts: 2260 | Subs: 1
Wermaht mortar have broken the game more
you gotta know with your insane amount of wehrmacht games
9 Mar 2018, 12:56 PM
#29
Posts: 1220
you gotta know with your insane amount of wehrmacht games
doniechop what about stolen wermaht mortar ?
Do you think it counts?
9 Mar 2018, 13:25 PM
#30
Posts: 43
you gotta know with your insane amount of wehrmacht games
Why you have to play a faction to have a good idea about it. I was playing with Guard Motor and Land Lease without knowing they were cheese tactic.(Before VonIvan found and make them popular.) You need to play against something to judge about it's balance. You can't really measure well unless it is so op when you play it.
9 Mar 2018, 13:27 PM
#31
Posts: 365
Try playing OKW and have your truck attack with a weapon that you little means to fire back at and you might understand.
OKW have plenty of doctrinal counters for the doctrinal soviet threat of 120s. You have Feuersturm Incendiary muni for leig, Overwatch has a stealthing mobile detpack, Luftwaffe has Falls, and Scavenge has Jaegers. not to mention a plethora of offmap arty callins.
Also, the leig has a barrage range that is equal to a 120 at Vet 0 and increases at Vet 1 while the 120 must wait till Vet 3 to get a range increase. The leig also has a faster rate of fire. All with less popcap and less MP required.
The rest comes down to RGN.
Additionally, you have to build your Halftrack buildings so close to the front. Risk vs Reward.
The 120 does not have slower movement speed, that is incorrect.
You are right of course, I meant facing speed.
9 Mar 2018, 13:56 PM
#32
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Also, the leig has a barrage range that is equal to a 120 at Vet 0 and increases at Vet 1 while the 120 must wait till Vet 3 to get a range increase. The leig also has a faster rate of fire. All with less popcap and less MP required.
The rest comes down to RGN.
That is incorrect the barrage range is 100.
Leig is far less effective than any mortar and it has real issues hitting anything behind a shot blocker.
9 Mar 2018, 15:13 PM
#33
Posts: 170 | Subs: 1
OKW have plenty of doctrinal counters for the doctrinal soviet threat of 120s. You have Feuersturm Incendiary muni for leig, Overwatch has a stealthing mobile detpack, Luftwaffe has Falls, and Scavenge has Jaegers. not to mention a plethora of offmap arty callins.
I have yet to see effective use of the leig incendiary shells, most of the time when an opponent has tried to use them I've been able to ignore the barrage. They feel to be more bark than bite + nice visual effects. It is a cool mechanic in theory but when your allied counterparts get well performing infantry callins at early CP levels from most meta commanders it seems a bit lackluster. Nothing wrong with the ability itself but I think you get more out of commanders that give the maximum amount of firepower while utility rarely has such an impact. (Take Soviet Mechanized Support for example: I much rather have a commander that has good call-in infantry, mark target, bombing run and an ISU152 + the rarely used soviet AT gun camo than a commander which gives me a flare when an enemy starts to decap a point and a broken lawn mover)
9 Mar 2018, 17:53 PM
#34
Posts: 3260
This is a change i support. Units with no/minimal micro but can wipe based on a dice roll is just bad. Barrages should be where its at.
However: with that big of a cut in performance i think they should probably be able to flee with a single model same as the 120mm (who tbh shouldnt be able to) but thats just gravy to me.
You wouldn't necessarily have to cut the performance - the loss of autoattack could be offset by reworking the barrage. For example, you could make the barrage a toggle: have the mortar continue to barrage indefinitely until ordered otherwise. When you tell the mortar to stop the barrage goes on cooldown.
9 Mar 2018, 19:44 PM
#35
Posts: 365
That is incorrect the barrage range is 100.
Leig is far less effective than any mortar and it has real issues hitting anything behind a shot blocker.
Who's barrage is 100? I just tested it 5 minutes before I made the post and it is the same range at vet 0. if it is behind a shot blocker us one of the doctrinal solutions like falls or jaegers. it is just as disheartening to have your garrisoned mg being pounded by 2-3 leig hiding behind a schwerer knowing as soon as you full the mg back the volk blob is coming.
I have yet to see effective use of the leig incendiary shells, most of the time when an opponent has tried to use them I've been able to ignore the barrage.
I know what you mean, out in the open but it does force you to at least move your crew weapons out of the fire and has a decent spread. The Soviet "counterpart" costs like 80 muni i think and not only needs vision to deploy but can potentially drop all 3 shells on the same spot ruining the spread. I think it does more damage but whether or not it can kill a a full health crew weapon depends heavily on the opponents ability to pay attention. It's more likely to be noticed where vision is being created than otherwise.
9 Mar 2018, 19:51 PM
#36
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
Who's barrage is 100? I just tested it 5 minutes before I made the post and it is the same range at vet 0. if it is behind a shot blocker us one of the doctrinal solutions like falls or jaegers.
Leig has an auto-attack range of 80 and barrage range of 100.
120mm has an auto-attack range of 100 and barrage range of 100.
it is just as disheartening to have your garrisoned mg being pounded by 2-3 leig hiding behind a schwerer knowing as soon as you full the mg back the volk blob is coming.
And that is the problem you need 540-810 manpower to counter a single HMG.
9 Mar 2018, 20:18 PM
#37
Posts: 365
Leig has an auto-attack range of 80 and barrage range of 100.
120mm has an auto-attack range of 100 and barrage range of 100.
and I specifically said barrage range in my first post
And that is the problem you need 540-810 manpower to counter a single HMG.
Do you honestly believe that you MUST have 2-3 leig as a defense against a garrisoned maxim? Lets say that 2 leig manage to collapse the building with the maxim in it. By the logic you are using those leig are now useless.
There are many alternatives vanilla and doctrinal to encourage an maxim to vacate a building in the early, mid, and late game. I remember much gnashing of teeth about a lack of anti garrison abilities for OKW and that got you the lava grenade.
Your original complaint was that the 120 could harass your okw buildings easily. I restate my original call to simply build them further behind your lines.
9 Mar 2018, 20:24 PM
#38
Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1
and I specifically said barrage range in my first post
You also said 120 range it's 100.
9 Mar 2018, 20:31 PM
#39
Posts: 365
You also said 120 range it's 100.
the leig has a barrage range that is equal to a 120 at Vet 0
leig barrage range at vet 0 = 120mm mortar barrage range at vet 0.
I am not sure what you are correcting me on as we both agree that the barrage range for both at vet 0 is the same.
EDIT:
It could just be that I was using 120 as a shorthand for the mortar and you mistook it for a declaration of range. That mixed with you being ESL added to the confusion maybe?
9 Mar 2018, 21:08 PM
#40
Posts: 3260
And that is the problem you need 540-810 manpower to counter a single HMG.
You don't. You need two Volksgrenadier squads. If you can micro a flank you can
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