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russian armor

Worst than brace : multiple OKW's flak trucks camping vp

25 Mar 2017, 18:14 PM
#21
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

Make the gun an opt-in upgrade, and put 5-8 popcap on it, like the Bofors (which has 10).

#fixed

agreed
25 Mar 2017, 18:37 PM
#22
avatar of thekingsown

Posts: 24



coh2 is (supposed to be) balanced around 1v1, any discussion around team games is pointless.

But if you want my point of view, even in team games, the okw flak is easy to destroy because only sturm can repair it and are very weak while doing that.

a single 120 mm mortar can get rid of a flak HT, and if you get countered by leifh then you can reinforce your squad with cons/m3 halftrack.


Says who? If the game is balanced for 1vs1 then it's balanced for 2vs2 , 3vs3 and 4vs4 . If something is extremely over performing like British emplacements then they will always be over performing regardless. If it was balanced for 2vs1 or 3vs2 then yes that is understandable but we are increasing number of players with a 1/1 ratio.

On another note if the OP is happy to swap a Boffors for a paper unit with far worse damage and virtually no survivabilty please be my guest and give OKW or Wehr a Boffors clone. Then we will see the same OP complaining how broken emplacements are.
25 Mar 2017, 19:10 PM
#23
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Here's my solution to the flak cannon and HQ.

-100-120 munitions for flak cannon no population
-Panzer HQ cost halved but can only call in Obers and maybe jagdpIV
-Upgrade required for the other tanks which brings back the cost to standard levels in total.
-Gun can choose targets.

Finally

-AA no longer based on RNG


Will not come panzers and panthers to early when you switch some off uel cost to munnitopn cost ?
25 Mar 2017, 19:12 PM
#24
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Here's my solution to the flak cannon and HQ.

-100-120 munitions for flak cannon no population
-Panzer HQ cost halved but can only call in Obers and maybe jagdpIV
-Upgrade required for the other tanks which brings back the cost to standard levels in total.
-Gun can choose targets.

Finally

-AA no longer based on RNG


I agree. Obers arrive too late right now, but that is because T4 comes with a giant free gun so getting it earlier would mean that it could be on the ground before the first light tank.

The gun should also be able to be directed, and forcing the munitions cost would allow OKW to decide how to use munitions, not just upgrade everything. This would also force obers to potentially play without the MG34 for one engagement.

I find the Schwer extremely annoying to play against, and its ability to hold cutoffs for zero micro is a lazy design. On many maps it can be placed to cover cutoffs with very little risk to it. OKW repair speeds guarantees any attack that does not destroy it will be a complete failure.
25 Mar 2017, 20:07 PM
#25
avatar of Xutryn_X7

Posts: 131



I agree. Obers arrive too late right now, but that is because T4 comes with a giant free gun so getting it earlier would mean that it could be on the ground before the first light tank.

The gun should also be able to be directed, and forcing the munitions cost would allow OKW to decide how to use munitions, not just upgrade everything. This would also force obers to potentially play without the MG34 for one engagement.

I find the Schwer extremely annoying to play against, and its ability to hold cutoffs for zero micro is a lazy design. On many maps it can be placed to cover cutoffs with very little risk to it. OKW repair speeds guarantees any attack that does not destroy it will be a complete failure.

Really? what about boffors ability to hold cutoffs,brace that reduce incoming damage(until IS ghost warrior will rekt you or a cromwell/comet).Bofors wipe easy infantry,schwer no.If you lose a bofors after a long time,you only lose 30 fuel.For schwer you lose 120 fuel and that means everything in 1vs1 and 2vs2.In 3vs3 and 4vs4 they can get destroyed easier.Just use the usf mortar,pak,at gun to take down that schwer.You have calliOP to rekt schwer and so on.Don't attack schwer with bazooka.
25 Mar 2017, 20:10 PM
#26
avatar of le_saucisson_masque

Posts: 485 | Subs: 1



Says who? If the game is balanced for 1vs1 then it's balanced for 2vs2 , 3vs3 and 4vs4 .


that's where you are wrong.
25 Mar 2017, 20:26 PM
#27
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1


Really? what about boffors ability to hold cutoffs,brace that reduce incoming damage(until IS ghost warrior will rekt you or a cromwell/comet).Bofors wipe easy infantry,schwer no.If you lose a bofors after a long time,you only lose 30 fuel.For schwer you lose 120 fuel and that means everything in 1vs1 and 2vs2.In 3vs3 and 4vs4 they can get destroyed easier.Just use the usf mortar,pak,at gun to take down that schwer.You have calliOP to rekt schwer and so on.Don't attack schwer with bazooka.


I don't think pointing out that the bofors is an annoying unit has anything to do with this discussion. I agree that the boffors is working incorrectly right now, but that does not prevent other units from being discussed.

You also completely ignored the way in which I am trying to provide a balanced option for the game instead of nerfing/buffing one unit.

Also the Pak howie has to fire more than 20 rounds at the Schwer to reduce it, if you have time to build a pak howie and hold it in range to fire ~20 rounds and your opponent never pushed it back or repaired, you lost the Schwer on your own.
25 Mar 2017, 20:58 PM
#28
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 499

The bofors makes you sit a lot of population in one spot so the flak hq eitger needs pop or a fair cost to upgrade. The flak hq does not. Both need tweaks so arguing A cannot be fixed because B needs to be fixed ismt productive. There will need to be changes to all campy style emplacment flak hq included.

Like the free AA that OKW get, eventually needs to eitger not target aircraft or be made to deal zero unless its a player built 2cm flak.
25 Mar 2017, 23:38 PM
#29
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2147 | Subs: 1

Oh, If UKF just had some kind of an armageddon bombing run that counters 4 trucks at once with one click
25 Mar 2017, 23:53 PM
#30
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4104 | Subs: 3

Oh, If UKF just had some kind of an armageddon bombing run that counters 4 trucks at once with one click


This guy :thumbsup:

The bofors makes you sit a lot of population in one spot so the flak hq eitger needs pop or a fair cost to upgrade. The flak hq does not. Both need tweaks so arguing A cannot be fixed because B needs to be fixed ismt productive. There will need to be changes to all campy style emplacment flak hq included.

Like the free AA that OKW get, eventually needs to eitger not target aircraft or be made to deal zero unless its a player built 2cm flak.


OKW also doesn't have any meta useable AA for teamgames.
26 Mar 2017, 00:37 AM
#31
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Here's my solution to the flak cannon and HQ.

-100-120 munitions for flak cannon no population
-Panzer HQ cost halved but can only call in Obers and maybe jagdpIV
-Upgrade required for the other tanks which brings back the cost to standard levels in total.
-Gun can choose targets.

Finally

-AA no longer based on RNG


+1

Cost (amount and type of, cause i'm not convinced with muni for tech) can be discussed but i would like to see a half tech for T4 which unlocks JPIV and Obers earlier and having some kind of TD in case of Flak HQ destruction.

To OP and some users here:
1- Is OKW Flak HQ worst than brace. A big NOPE.
2- Is multiple Flak HQ OP? Not really. As mentioned by playercardplz (kappa), UKF has a nice offmap (in fact several offmaps) to deal with them (one of them recently nerf in order to not 1 shot it).
3- Are AFK emplacements flawed by design. BIG YES.
4- Is the OKW Flak HQ tech flawed. IMO YES.

People are really hypocrite if they consider OKW static play good and fair while they heavily critic UKF emplacement STYLE. I'm not talking about level of cancer (UK is way worst) but their basics are the same (retreat to medic HQ, sit ISG and let them afk shoot at whatever they can, protect back flank with Flak HQ, specially behind hedges).

SOLUTION:
-Not necessarily exact what Mirage said, but at least the concept.
-Bofor/Flak HQ toggle mode between AA and land targeting.
-Bofor/Flak HQ has a manual arc where they can shoot. No automatic rotation.

OKW also doesn't have any meta useable AA for teamgames.


Guess what, this applies to all factions.
Centurion/Ostwind are not cheap, M5 requires a further munition investment and (currently) AA HT are not in "popular" tech choices nor the units itself are as good.
In fact, it's easier (fuel/mp wise) to get a HT for AA, than trying to get either Ostwind/Centurion.

About AA: if toggle mode with static emplacements can be implemented, i wouldn't mind increasing range and effectiveness on them (specially if the OKW Flak is locked behind upgrade).

PD: "If we can finally buff flak bunker emplacement from OKW commanders, that would be great"
PD2: "If we can finally swap flak bunkers on base from OKW for MG bunkers and remove extra MG bunkers from USF base, that would be great"
26 Mar 2017, 00:50 AM
#32
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 793

Make the gun an opt-in upgrade, and put 5-8 popcap on it, like the Bofors (which has 10).

#fixed


Nope

Here's my solution to the flak cannon and HQ.

-100-120 munitions for flak cannon no population
-Panzer HQ cost halved but can only call in Obers and maybe jagdpIV
-Upgrade required for the other tanks which brings back the cost to standard levels in total.
-Gun can choose targets.

Finally

-AA no longer based on RNG


Yes
26 Mar 2017, 01:03 AM
#33
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 499

OKW also doesn't have any meta useable AA for teamgames.

You mean like how every other faction has to choose non meta AA units to counter air abilities? Not to mention ostwind is an okw meta king in 1's 2's and still usefully in larger games for its role.

So free AA is still BS
26 Mar 2017, 02:10 AM
#34
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4104 | Subs: 3

What I mean is OKW have to use their precious commander selection just to get AA flak. Other factions do not. If balance is to be achieved factions should have the tools to deal with most threats. And the OKW ostwind isn't exactly super OP either. It's meta because it's a decent callin. The flakpanzer 4 could probably use a slight buff.
26 Mar 2017, 02:30 AM
#35
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 955

People don't seem to understand that while you are trying to destroy the OKW camping spot, they will attack you elsewhere. Also they won't let you destroy their HQ freely. Ever heard of Walking Stuka ? Arty ?

It just buy them time. Not unlike the Bofors i guess...

And the Sturm Tiger/InfraRed halftrack combo? Rush on you forward retreat point !? On some small maps there is no escape (:. no real solutions....

And on city 17 and the the like where there is an ammo point deep, there is the Stuka bombing at will /munition supplies combo... and you can't shout the planes.... but allies supply planes are getting shooted down all the time.

Those are the winning Axis combos to name only those.

What are the Allies one ?

Oh i forgot, it's asymmetric warfare...

The real world : To win the allied players must be significantly better. That's our combo.

Brace.... just a drop in the ocean...
26 Mar 2017, 02:58 AM
#36
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4104 | Subs: 3

People don't seem to understand that while you are trying to destroy the OKW camping spot, they will attack you elsewhere. Also they won't let you destroy their HQ freely. Ever heard of Walking Stuka ? Arty ?

It just buy them time. Not unlike the Bofors i guess...

And the Sturm Tiger/InfraRed halftrack combo? Rush on you forward retreat point !? On some small maps there is no escape (:. no real solutions....

And on city 17 and the the like where there is an ammo point deep, there is the Stuka bombing at will /munition supplies combo... and you can't shout the planes.... but allies supply planes are getting shooted down all the time.

Those are the winning Axis combos to name only those.

What are the Allies one ?

Oh i forgot, it's asymmetric warfare...

The real world : To win the allied players must be significantly better. That's our combo.

Brace.... just a drop in the ocean...


While I'd say allies having to be better is both true and false. Technically, with armor allies do generally have to be better at micro because it's simply much easier to have the forward armor of your tanks just bounce shots instead of microing your tank. But then you have things like arty cover, the landmattress, calliOPe, infiltration commandos cloak gammon bomb, katyusha (which is the golden standard for rocket arty but is stronger than the pwerfer cause reasons). Axis generally rely on stuka dive bomb and stuka close air support. There's a few other less common combos like arty flares + zero but team coordination is more rare. Point is both of them have point click abilities.
26 Mar 2017, 04:57 AM
#37
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 499

The mobile flak track fulfills AA perfectly fine. No need for commander choice. So again free AA is BS. OKW should need to make a choice and pay for it like all other factions including wher do to counter air abilities. Putting a units AA ability into a quantifiable number instead of RNG as miragefla suggested would be nice for all units as well. Concidering its taken so long to fix the Russian quads mega anti air nerf Soviets have had zero solution and still don't until WPB except sacrificing goats.

so again to remove crutches Okw base defence chance to shoot down aircraft to zero would encourage less "no brainer"

OKW AA: Its so no brainer you dont even have to do anything but play.
26 Mar 2017, 07:56 AM
#38
avatar of Ayro

Posts: 43

You can smoke the front of the HQ and cap that VP.

Just like OKW can do this to UKF.
26 Mar 2017, 08:17 AM
#39
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4104 | Subs: 3

The mobile flak track fulfills AA perfectly fine. No need for commander choice. So again free AA is BS. OKW should need to make a choice and pay for it like all other factions including wher do to counter air abilities. Putting a units AA ability into a quantifiable number instead of RNG as miragefla suggested would be nice for all units as well. Concidering its taken so long to fix the Russian quads mega anti air nerf Soviets have had zero solution and still don't until WPB except sacrificing goats.

so again to remove crutches Okw base defence chance to shoot down aircraft to zero would encourage less "no brainer"

OKW AA: Its so no brainer you dont even have to do anything but play.


I actually havn't seen an OKW AAHT in so long I don't even know how good it is against planes. I'd still like flakpanzer 4 to be non doctrinal for OKW. No AI medium is a pain lategame sometimes, but that's a topic for another thread. In all honesty though, I'd like OKW to just be able to place buildings in base sector and no where else. Then the removal of FRP. I usually put it in my base sector just covering the cutoff anyways since losing it usually just ends the game.
26 Mar 2017, 08:27 AM
#40
avatar of OuTLaWSTaR
Donator 11

Posts: 451

In any team format:

Worst than brace : Multiple OKW's flak trucks + a forward retreat truck camping a VP or the best fuel point.

When the map make it possible, it's a lot worst than brace. Dual OKW team are hard to beat when using it and playing well .(2vs2)

It permit to the Axis team to concentrate elsewhere, and to retreat to it in case of something happen.

Sure it can be beaten, but it's as fun as Brit's brace...

My 2 cents


Just attack their cutoff. If they invest manpower into protecting an area, punish them in other ways by cutting of resources to that point or concentrate on the other 2 vps until you can divide their forces and sneak a Crom and 17 pounder over to their Swhere and destroy it.
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